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Projects Early 32 roadster build with a bunch of questions!

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by 31pickemup, Oct 29, 2014.

  1. 31pickemup
    Joined: Apr 9, 2006
    Posts: 1,295

    31pickemup
    Member

    Hey Gang! I'm finally going to build a 32 roadster. I'm leaning towards a pre-war build or a late 40's build. Here's what I have to start with. Original V8 32 chassis, firewall, radiator with a new steel Brookville body. I'm a huge fan of the Henderson roadster so i'm wanting to build something that reflects that. My plans are to use a 1953 Mercury flatty converted to earlier heads and timing cover (Because I can't find a good 1938-42 flathead around here), 39 toploader and either 40 or 46/48 juice brakes. But since i'm new to flatty's and roadsters I have a few things to work that I need help with. I think the biggest questions I have is what kind of obstacles do I face running a later flathead in this chassis? Will the motor mount locations be the same? What type of water pumps do I have to run? What fan assembly to run etc? unnamed (15).jpg unnamed (16).jpg unnamed (18).jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2014
  2. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,681

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Mounts: '32 V8 mounts ($$$) availble in repro, fabricated, orginal will do the job with ver minor mods.
    More common would be to carry on with early 24 stud theme using '37-48 pumps (again, minor mods to fit late block)
    and munts like Hurst A-28/simple fabricated tabs on frame, set engine so crank ratchet nut aligns with hole for handcrank over spring.
    Simplest front end with those pumps is generator (modified into idler if multicarb) with fan on pulley and a '32 fan.
    Alternate would be two row pulley and '42-8 fan.
     
  3. 31pickemup
    Joined: Apr 9, 2006
    Posts: 1,295

    31pickemup
    Member

    Bruce I have a set of original motor mounts so use those in combination with 37-48 pumps? I thought those pumps have mounting ears on them already? Is it a wiser choice to use a later engine and just convert it over like i'm wanting to do? I've heard they have better oiling. Or look for a earlier engine?
     
  4. racinman
    Joined: Dec 30, 2008
    Posts: 951

    racinman
    Member Emeritus

    Great Project... Im subscribed!
     

  5. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,681

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    You can make the late engine look pretty hotrod-like, so if you have a good block, go with it. If you have surplus $, a pre-war 99 would be cool! Early blocks were virtually universal on dragsters and early hotrods even into the '60's, when late blocks were common as dirt, but I don't think there are serious advantages. 99's were allegedly thicker bores than anything else, and were chosen for ragged-edge 3 7/16 racers.
    With the '37-48 pumps, the angle of belt is different from '32-6...grinding, which can be very subtle if you are careful, clears a path. Often the edge of the mount interferes with edge of pump, again light grinding does it. Grind pumps to save damage to rare part, or grind mounts to make pump replacement easy.
     
    gwhite likes this.
  6. 31pickemup
    Joined: Apr 9, 2006
    Posts: 1,295

    31pickemup
    Member

    Pre-war 99? sorry im newer to flatheads
     
  7. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,681

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    OK...your '49-53 type can be made to look reasonably like an early 24 stud. '38-42 there were 221, and also 239's, all readily transformed into 255's if you want. '39-40 239's were designated 99's, and then there were minor variants of them '41-2 and in wartime production. Postwar, the 59 (clearly marked on bellhousing) was used '46-8 and was also a nearly universal replacement motor for earlier Fords. Ford supplied kits of the minor parts needed to put postwar replacement engines into early chassis...
     
  8. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,681

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    recommended reading...lots of good info in Ron Bishop's book on building an A-v8, definitely get Ron Hollerans flathead book being reprinted over on Ford barn site
     
  9. Attached Files:

  10. Before you drop big bucks on a '32 fan get everything together and check radiator/distributer clearance. My guess is that you will need a '37 fan. The '32 fan was the longest (blade to generator mount) and the '37 the shortest.

    Charlie Stephens
     
  11. solidaxle
    Joined: Jan 6, 2011
    Posts: 662

    solidaxle
    Member
    from Upstate,NY

    You have a nice little project there!
    I have a 53 8ba in my 32 with the stock 32 motor mounts that attach to the front cross member and the 8ba long shaft pumps. I'm also running a mechanical ford fan with the stock dizzy. It's tight and hasn't been long haul road tested yet so I'm still tweaking it. Your later merc heads with the forward water outlet allows the water to travel the full length of the head. It's one of the best heads for your 53 for performance and cooling. I know guys do it but when using the 59 center outlet type head, it may limit the cooling.

    I've read on this site where guys have taken a dually crank pulley and machined off the outer one to clear the cross member, that may work for you if run use a single belt system with a 32 cross member.The only thing I don't like on mine is the stock cross member needs to be notched to clear my dual wide belt crank pulley. Mine was already cut from the previous owner so it wasn't a heart ache and I'm able to run the dual wide belt pulley.
     
  12. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,681

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Using the early '37-48 pumps, single belt is I think same distance out as '32-6. Up above, the early engine is on '32 mounts, the later one on A-28's or similar.
    With dual sheaves, look around before hacking, as it seems to me that the world is full of '32 crossmembers notched out for Oldsmobile pulleys.
     
  13. xix32
    Joined: Jun 12, 2008
    Posts: 593

    xix32
    Member

    The 59a ( `46-`48) pulleys will stradle and clear the stock `32 front crossmember, as shown in my photo. I think the 8ba ( `49-`53) will not. These engine mounts are home made from pcs of 1/4" cold rolled plate, to work just like the original `32 V8. Like Bruce said: align crank center with the stock `32 hand crank guide, or be sure it's 2 .375" below the top of the frame rail so the rear trans mount will sit flush against the "K" member. Don't jack up the front of the engine to attempt to align the pump inlets with the radiator outlets, that will cause the engine to be so high it will run into the firewall.
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,681

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    If crank does not align with holes, a dead battery will require you to call AAA; They automatically notify Ryan, and your member status is reset to SOCCER MOM.
     
    sko_ford, IronFord, gwhite and 2 others like this.
  15. 31pickemup
    Joined: Apr 9, 2006
    Posts: 1,295

    31pickemup
    Member

    Too funny Bruce! Also what master cylinder setup do you guys recommend. Vern Tardel has a bracket and so does MEC
     
  16. 31pickemup
    Joined: Apr 9, 2006
    Posts: 1,295

    31pickemup
    Member

    Might be hard for me to convert to earlier heads. I've been wanting to use these Edmunds heads for a while now. unnamed (19).jpg
     
  17. solidaxle
    Joined: Jan 6, 2011
    Posts: 662

    solidaxle
    Member
    from Upstate,NY

    I would use those heads if they aren't corroded to shit. Age and water mixed with electrolysis puts a beaten on aluminum. As stated before, better cooling with the later head. There is a reason why Henry changed the water outlet location from the previous style.
     
  18. Pewsplace
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 2,795

    Pewsplace
    Member

    You shouldn't have a problem. Here is one we just did.

    fhhat.jpg
     
    sko_ford likes this.
  19. thequietwon
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 600

    thequietwon
    Member

    I miss that little roadster already...look forward to seeing it come together.
    By the way, the Henderson roadster still has mechanical brakes...just saying!!
     
  20. Jimmy2car
    Joined: Nov 26, 2003
    Posts: 1,707

    Jimmy2car
    Member
    from No. Cal

    My thoughts:
    Use the 32 mounts (new or repo), Makes your life sooo much easier, and everything ends up in the right place
     
  21. Lots of good info here - I'll try to give you one exact method to accomplish your work . . . having done the same a few times. I'll probably give you more detail than you need - I tend to babble on . . .

    I'll separate the 49 - 53 engine - looking like a 59AB . . . from the motor mounts question

    1) Motor Mounts: Any Later Flathead - in 32 Frame: If you don't want to modify your frame (and why would yah!), then use the stock 32 engine mounts with the later engine. Job done - nothing to weld or add.
    a) You'll not use the motor mount 'ears' from the water pumps - so cut those suckers off so they don't act like useless horns on a Flathead Bull!
    b) Mount Modifications: The fan belt angle will be greater (more to the outside of the car), than with an early head-mounted water pump 21 stud designs. Due to this, you'll need to grind the motor mounts for some belt clearance. Easy to see what to do when you bolt it up - if you need an example, I can post one (have them in my 32 FlatCab).​
    2) Manifold, Fan, Etc: If you use a typical later flathead manifold (T-Slot generator mount) in the car, then the early 33 - 36 style generator pulley will align with the crank pulley on any 32 - 48 setup (they were always in the same location . . . front to back of the car)
    3) Generator and Fan: If you're want to be 'traditional' and run a generator up top of the manifold (which always looks best), then you might want to get a typical 33 - 36 style generator and put the 32 fan on the front of it - this should put the fan in just about the right place. It will be close to the 32 water outlets, overflow and radiator itself - but it should work out with the right length belt. If you need a picture, can supply one.
    3) 49 -53 Flathead - Looking Like a 39 - 48: Now, I must agree with you . . . just like the looks of the early motors with the center water outlets - and I have plenty of each type (39-48 and 49-53). Also, if you 'convert' the later motor to act like a 37 - 48, it will be a LOT easier to fit this all in, have a generator and have a fan . . . plus it just looks a LOT better! (Okay - I couldn't help myself - no offense intended to guys running 49 - 53 motors "as-is" in early cars!). Here are the details of converting the later motor . . .

    1. Distributor: This is very important! You really need to get to a front mount distributor - like all 32 - 48 engines! You'll not be able to run the early pumps, pulleys, generator, etc - and the 49 - 53 side-mount distributor/magneto. So - just get it in your head that the distributor will be in front - which is the way us 'traditional' flathead guys like em'!
    2. Key Points on the Distributor Conversion - Timing Gears - Early Timing Cover!: The 32 - 48 engines all used crank/cam timing gears that put the thrust toward the block - exactly the opposite in 49 - 53 (they used the timing cover). So - you really need to change the crankshaft/cam timing gears to the 39 - 48 style on a 49-53 engine if you're going to run the early timing covers and front mount distributor. I know - nobody probably told you this - but it is important. Truth be told, I can see no reason to NOT run the early setup on any flathead - regardless of distributor location. My guess is that Ford wanted to KNOW where the distributor drive gear was on 49 -53 engines - so by having the thrust on the back of the timing cover, they knew. Me - I would have done it differently, but I didn't need to consider making millions of engines!
    3. Water Pumps: You can easily put the 37 - 48 style pumps on the 49 - 53 block. If it was 20 years ago, I might talk to you about the fact that original/stock 37 - 48 pumps have a permeable bronze bushing that was lubricated from splash oil from the timing gear location . . . via a hole in the 37 - 48 block . . . which doesn't exist on the later 49-53 blocks . . . which caused the earlier pumps to die a premature death. But Hey - that news doesn't matter as long as you're buying 37 - 48 pumps with modern ball-bearing/sealed bearings that don't need no stinking splash damn oil anyway! :) Just thought you should know - in case you really want to be 'traditional' - guys with old-school bushing pumps, I told yah so!
      1. Trim Em to the Block: What I'm doing on my 42 block is trimming the 37 - 48 water pump housings flush with the profile of the block - removing the 'bull horns' mounting ears - as they are not used when you're using the 32 motor mounts. This makes the whole setup look better - and unless you really know your stuff, you'd have no clue that this later design engine didn't come in this 32 frame.
    4. Cam Snout - Early Cam Design: Now I know the whole reason you don't want to change the water pumps, timing cover and distributor . . . is because the damn 49 - 53 cam has a 'snout' on it . . . and this will not be viable with my whole conversation! Yep - you want to go early and make this an easy fit (and look cool and correct) . . . then you need to go complete 37 - 48 Cold Fricking Turkey Baby! That means you need an earlier cam that does not have the late side-mount distributor snout/gear and does have the timing slot for the early front mount timing cover and distributor. There really isn't a choice - if you really want this to look like a duck, act like a duck and quack like a duck - better make it a damn duck!
    5. Oil/Crankcase Breathers and Such: I've drank a few beers and really don't feel like getting into the whole "crankcase, manifold and ventilation" discussion, but you will need to consider that the pan evacuation/breathing systems are different between the early 37 - 48 engines and the later 49 - 53. You need to consider the intake manifold you're putting on the engine - and whether or not it was designed to keep the generator in the stock position and run a couple carbs (like the Edelbrock Slingshot, Eddie Meyer, etc) - or others where the two carbs were set back --> Edmunds, Sharp, early Weiand, etc). Later engines had a breather tube up-front on the manifold. While you can run ANY 32 - 53 manifold on any flathead, you need to consider crankcase breathing when you start mixing/matching different designs. You may need to add some sort of intake ventilation and PCV to your setup - as your manifold may have no provision to let air into the valley/crankcase area. Fresh air is important for these engines - especially when you consider condensation, crankcase emissions, etc.
    Okay - I have once again babbled to the point of making myself quite bored! Hopefully this information is valuable, if so . . . cool . . . if not, there are many other 'Flathead Fortune Tellers' - pick your poison.

    Keep em' Flat . . . . accept for Carl, he likes Arduns . . . :)

    B&S
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2014
  22. Deuce Daddy Don
    Joined: Apr 27, 2008
    Posts: 5,544

    Deuce Daddy Don
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Been there & done all that!---Works great for short hauls around town etc.
    You will never find parts going cross country for a flathead OR running gear.
     
  23. It all depends on how well built your car is, what parts yah need, what spares you carry (distributor points, fuel pump, water pump) and who you know along the way. Is a late SBC or Ford Mod Motor a lot more reliable and easy to get parts for - won't argue that, but this is the section of the HAMB for 'Traditional Hot Rods' . . . so I'll surely support anybody building one!
     
    31pickemup and Hitchhiker like this.
  24. Babar40
    Joined: Dec 4, 2009
    Posts: 314

    Babar40
    Member
    from Florida

    image.jpg Here is my '51 motor with the early stuff.
     
  25. banjorear
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 4,479

    banjorear
    Member

    A little off topic, but follow up to B&S's response. What about adding one of the Offy oil pan breathers. Does that do any thing to help with breathing?
     
  26. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,681

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    what is missing on the ventilation system with converted late engine is the OUT side of the ventilation meant to create a flow through engine and not just holes to vent pressure. Best solution here would be a concealed PCV below manifold...it not only supplies the motivation for the air flow, it does a better job than the '48 pan vent or '49 draft tube, and so helps engine durability.
     
  27. Babar40
    Joined: Dec 4, 2009
    Posts: 314

    Babar40
    Member
    from Florida

    Maybe we could say a crankcase breather wouldn't hurt.
    There are lots of good Flatty books available that will have good information.
    Mr. Lancaster is right on the money.
     
  28. 31pickemup
    Joined: Apr 9, 2006
    Posts: 1,295

    31pickemup
    Member

    I actually have a good lead on a stock rebuilt 40 motor. Hoping to strike up a deal. How hard would it be to put my 4" crank inside it? What would I have to change out?
     
  29. banjorear
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 4,479

    banjorear
    Member

    Well, not to be a wise guy, all of the rods and crank. Crank gear, etc. I'm not sure and others could verify, some pre-59AB engines need to have the bottom of the bores notched for the longer throw.

    This may only be needed for longer than 4" stroke, but I'm not 100% sure. My advice, if the rebuilt '40 runs, run it as it. Put some dress up goodies and call it a day. Rebuild the other motor as you like and put it in when time or money permits.

    A running motor is worth more than a pile of parts.
     
  30. I ran one once, because I thought it was cool looking (35 years ago) - soon found out that it managed to leak a lot of oil. Hell - I had it on the driver's side (not the oil throw side) and as high as I could get it. Looked great until I actually ran the motor! :)

    Probably the best solution is to listen to Bruce and put in a concealed PCV valve in the valley area - the goal is to have the PCV on the other side of the valley from where the fresh air will come in . . . as you want the fresh air to travel across the valley, picking up condensation, fumes, etc.. Same concept for how you have a breather on one valve cover of a V8 and a PCV on the other valve cover - pulls fresh air in and through the motor.

    I'm just glad you guys are all reading! It is really easy to not think about any of this stuff and just forge ahead.
     

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