Pontiac HEMI thread Mickey Thompson, Jack Gifford, Steve Barcak

[applekrate]

A few people here were asking about my M/T HEMI stuff and I did not want to hijack another thread so started this one.

Pontiac motor division, as well as other GM divisions, were making and selling race cars and racing parts intended for offroad use. This was from about 1959 to January 1963 when, overnight, Pontiac was not allowed to further their racing efforts. From Jan '63 onward, only Ford and Chrysler actually had factory race cars and teams, etc.
In addition to their own racng and development operations, all the disivisions, including Pontiac, also had outside people and companies directly developing, racing and selling parts to promote their own racing interests. In the 1959-jan 1963 time frame, Mickey Thompson was with Pontiac in this effort. Ray Nichols and Smokey Yunick were 2 others.
Some of the 'fruit' from this effort for Pontiac was land speed reconds and runs in 1959 and 1960 at Bonneville. In 1960, M/T drove his 4 engined, Pontiac powered, Challenger to a 406mph average in a single pass. At the time, that made him the fastest man on wheels regardless of type ( wheel driven, thrust propelled, jets, rockets, etc,). In 1961 Pontiac power crushed many standing mile and kilo records at March AFB in Ca. Many records were also set on the water with Pontiac power.
In the spring of 1962, M/T company developed a HEMI head and related parts to fit the Pontiac engine. Chrysler had gotten out of the HEMI business in 1958 and no one had messed with HEMI stuff in about 3-4 years.
By late summer, the parts were ready, M/T & company assembled it on one of their rail dragsters and headed for the biggest drag race of them all, the US Indy Nationals. as a result, they ended up beating EVERYONE and took Top Eliminator. As an example of who they beat...they kicked Connie Kalitta in the semis and beat Don Garlits in the final to take the win.
Things were going very well in the racing world for Pontiac in 1962, but that ended about mid year for the 1963 models in Januarly. and as they say.... the rest is history.

Here are some pics of some of the HEMI stuff I have. I'll be posting more and if anyone wants to share what they know, or has questions, about the Pontiac HEMI, I encourage all to participate.

I will have my M/T HEMI stuff on display at my Pontiac Heaven event and also at the Nostalgia drags the following day here in Phoenix April 4,5 at Speedworld.

Also, there is HEMI info and pics all over my site on- race car, boats, and history pages if interested.
thank you,
Steve Barcak
www.pontiacheaven.org
Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgia drags, show and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az

[Little Wing]

3 sets of heads !! thats just showing off

Cool thread hope to learn more

[applekrate]

Not showing off, merely showing what I have collected. Actuallty, I have 7 heads, there is another one not in the pic.

Here are some pics from 1962...

Steve
www.pontiacheaven.org

Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgia drags, show and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az

[HRK-hotrods]

Nice

[scruff]

Did M/T also make some hemi heads for the 427 ford?.About 15 yrs ago there was a real thunderbolt for sale that was supposed to have been one of two Mickey prepped with his own hemi heads.

[power58]

You make us Pontiac Guys Proud ! Keeping the faith of a great American Engine. The M/T parts could'nt be in better hands.

[Algon]

Originally Posted by scruff

Did M/T also make some hemi heads for the 427 ford?.About 15 yrs ago there was a real thunderbolt for sale that was supposed to have been one of two Mickey prepped with his own hemi heads.

Yes, the first T-bolt built, that Jess Tyree drove had them, I'm not aware of another but both Thompson and Tyree switched to Ford from Pontiac. What some what made these short lived in popularity is the SOHC was introduced shortly after the FE M/T heads.

Applekrate, man that's some awesome stuff. Do have any of M/T's aluminum Pontiac blocks?

[Algon]

I've heard that the push rods in M/T Pontiacs were prone to breakage, do to the geometry and length necessary, that is at least on the fuel motors. Have you had any issues in using them, or found a way to correct this? This was the reason given for Brutus to be run with a 392 in place of the Hemi Pontiac.

[applekrate]

"Did M/T also make some hemi heads for the 427 ford?.About 15 yrs ago there was a real thunderbolt for sale that was supposed to have been one of two Mickey prepped with his own hemi heads."

"Yes, the first T-bolt built, that Jess Tyree drove had them, I'm not aware of another but both Thompson and Tyree switched to Ford from Pontiac. What some what made these short lived in popularity is the SOHC was introduced shortly after the FE M/T heads."


I agree, this is true. After the GM racing ban in Jan '63 most all of the GM teams switched to Ford, Mercury or Chrysler.

Here are some examples-
1. Thompson went with Ford.
2. Sox and Martin went from chev to Plymouth
3. Don Nicolson went from cevh to Mercury
4. Arlen Vanke went from Pontiac to Mopar, etc
5. Even Bill Jenkins went to Dodge and became one of the "Dodge boys" for a time.


The FE Ford engine has a very similiar bore spacing as Pontiac plus they both have 10 head bolt holes too. It was a simple matter of modifying what they had for the Pontiac to fit the Ford. The Ford HEMI is not the same as the Pontiac though. the Pontiac used a 'conventional' dual rocker shaft set up, like the 392. The Ford was quite different.
I have Ford HEMI pics to share too. In addition to the Thunderbolt HEMI 427, there was at least one other. It is a '63 Galaxy with 427 M/T HEMI power. My friend in Prescott, Az owns it .
Also, all the Pontiac HEMI intakes were for blowers. M/T did make a 2/4 intake for the HEMI Ford. The galaxie has the 2-4s. If anyone has the '64 M/T catalog ( the most common one), there is a pic of Mickey with a blown Ford 427 HEMI.
I agree that Ford must have not wanted to look too much like their enemy ( competition) Mopar and decided to build their own weapon... the SOHC cammer 427.


Steve Barcak
www.pontiacheaven.org

Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgia drags, show and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az

[Danger Diaz]

out of curiosity... how much would a pair of pontiac hemi heads cost now?

[Lakeshadow]

Wow, those heads look like Early Chrysler. I was told the Early Chrysler Hemi head bolt pattern was close enough as to bolt the Chrysler Hemi heads to the Pontiac block... Yet it was discovered later that the Pontiac lower end could not handle the power output. Is this true??

[Johnny Hotrod - BC]

Originally Posted by scruff

Did M/T also make some hemi heads for the 427 ford?.About 15 yrs ago there was a real thunderbolt for sale that was supposed to have been one of two Mickey prepped with his own hemi heads.

The t bolt with the MT hemi heads is here in the Vancouver area, I have seen it at the old time drags and it is beauty! It also has a rare set of MT radir style mags on it. The car was burgudy with gold leaf lettering but I cant remember the name on it .

[stude_trucks]

$1500 for a head setup back in 1962 was some serious bucks. By '62, the '57 and '58 Chryslers with 392's must have been hitting the second rounds and probably could have been had pretty cheap. Seems like kind of a no brainer just to get a 392 back then unless you were just some very hard core Pontiac diehard.

Kind of cool regardless, I have to admit. But, honestly, how did one of these set-ups fare against all the well known 392's during the time period? If you are going to copy something to try to beat it at it's own game, better hope you actually can I guess.

[Customline Vicky]

Wasn't Ford's "Shotgun" motor a hemi? Like Bob Glidden had? At Turkey Run there was one in an "A" hot rod.

[296 V8]

Originally Posted by applekrate

Actuallty, I have 7 heads, there is another one not in the pic.

Ever consider putting that extra head on one of them little Pontiac 4 bangers.
Crazy cool if it would work.

[applekrate]

"Wasn't Ford's "Shotgun" motor a hemi? Like Bob Glidden had? At Turkey Run there was one in an "A" hot rod."

The Ford "Shotgun" was officially called the Boss 429. Ford never used the term 'Hemi" but, instead, called it's valve layout and chamber design a 'crescent' shape. I am not as knowledgeable as some others here on Boss 429s but, they were indeed Hemis just not called that by Ford.
Also, the Hemis had their valves at 12 and 6 o'clock where the Boss 429 or Shotgun had valve locations at roughly 2 and 8 o'clock.


Steve Barcak
www.pontiacheaven.org


Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgia drags, show and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az

[applekrate]

"Ever consider putting that extra head on one of them little Pontiac 4 bangers.
Crazy cool if it would work."

Yes I have considered it and also have plans to do so. M/T and others did it in the 60s very successfully in fact.
Here is a pic of a dragster with a blown Hemi headed Tempest 195. This is out of "Tach" magazine which was the AHRA publication. this issue in the spring in '67 featured the AHRA Winternationals at Beeline dragway outside of Phoenix, Az.
The caption says "..... after setting a world record on Saturday, proceeded to mow down a crack field in competition eliminator for the title....." Car was run by Larry Edwards. I don't know much more about it.

Steve Barcak
www.pontiacheaven.org


Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgia drags, show and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az


__________________

[applekrate]

"$1500 for a head setup back in 1962 was some serious bucks. By '62, the '57 and '58 Chryslers with 392's must have been hitting the second rounds and probably could have been had pretty cheap. Seems like kind of a no brainer just to get a 392 back then unless you were just some very hard core Pontiac diehard."
The price was actually listed as $1,000 complete, not $1,500. Still a lot of money, agreed. Heads were desigined for high end classes, not stockers.

"Kind of cool regardless, I have to admit. But, honestly, how did one of these set-ups fare against all the well known 392's during the time period? If you are going to copy something to try to beat it at it's own game, better hope you actually can I guess."

Well, they never really did get a chance to prove themselves that much against the hundreds of 392s.

While the heads and related parts were listed in 3 catalogs of his. Very few were sold. as for complete Pontiac HEMIs, only about 3 were know to have been sold and I have the only one known that has remained together over the years.
The guy I bought it from bought it new from M/T in '63. They had at the time some type of gasser class car and when they put it in the car, NHRA could not classify it because it was the only HEMI Pontiac out there.
After a short time of frustration trying to fit into a class, they gave up on the drag racing thing on pavement and built a sand rail for the HEMI to run in the sand drags.
Here is a picture of my Pontiac M/T HEMI in 1967. Blown, on fuel.

Steve Barcak
www.pontiacheaven.org



Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgia drags, show and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az

__________________

[applekrate]

With the research I have made. I have learned there were about 15-20 pairs of heads casted and about 4 or 5 intakes. that is what Fritz Voigt told me when I interviewed him a few years back. He was one of Mickeys friends, workers and head mechanics.

Another team that tried the M/T HEMI Pontiac but did not stay with it was the Team of Lew Arrington and Jim Leiberman. An issue on a '65 Hot Rod pictures the car with the Pontiac HEMI installed. This was in the '65 GTO funny car "Brutus". They switched many things on the car including the motor to a 392, the motor location, the stance of the car, etc, etc... as funny cars were rapidly evolving at that time as most are aware of.


Steve Barcak
www.pontiacheaven.org

Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgia drags, show and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az

[applekrate]

Here is the #2 M/T HEMI Pontiac used. This was Jack Chrismans own car, an AA/Fueler on nitro. As opposed to M/Ts dragmaster car ( white ) that ran on gasoline during the NHRA fuel ban.
This car was wrecked in a spectacular accident at Lions in the fall of '62.
The story is so crazy, I did not believe it at first even though the guy who told me is very credible.
Here is what I was told...
"Chrisman pushed down the fire up road and turned around to make a pass, early in the run, one of the rear mag wheels broke during a wheelstand...sent the car out of control and it ran into the tower on the left side of the track. Chrisman apparantely knocked out...motor running buzzing to the moon on nitro...One of the track personel who got to the car first pulled the plug wires out of the motor to get it to shut off......!

I know, I know, it a a pretty wild story and it's seems like one that was made up.
When I heard the story years back, I kinda' took it with a grain of salt so to speak. Even though the guy telling me who way it is very credible.

Anyway... what finally won me over and made me believe it was I heard the almost identical story from another person here in Az who also was there at Lions that day. these guy do not know each other.
I was finally a believer. then, a few years later, it I saw it documented in a drag racing book.
amazing story.
Here is his car before the wreck. I am not aware of pics of the wreck but, there must be some somewhere.
This was at the peak time of Pontiac development and racing with M/T. It was about to end in the few months.

The M/T Pontiac HEMI story..... to be continued.....

Steve Barcak
www.pontiacheaven.org

Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgia drags, show and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az

[HEMI32]

Steve ... very cool thread! ... lot's of interesting info I did not know ... and (since you haven't posted it yet) here's a pic from High Performance PONTIAC magazine:


2007 Pontiac Heaven Drags & More IX
The incredibly rare Mickey Thompson Hemi Pontiac was on display. According to Steve
Barcak, he purchased it from the original owner, who bought it from Thompson in 1963.
The '62 389 custom M/T block has been bored and the crank stroked to displace 460
cubic inches. You can see the rare M/T magnesium Hemi blower intake, front cover and
valve covers with breathers. Note the vintage Hillborn fuel injection and Mooneyham
6-71 supercharger. The oil pan is for a marine application.

[monsterflake]

do you know what happened to the m/t casting patterns that were on ebay last year?

[scootermcrad]

WOW!!!! Good stuff!!!

(this is why I need to add a couple more catagories to the Hemi Tech section!!)

[55chieftain]

Anyone going to put Pontiac HEMI heads on their wish list now? Probably won't be a cheap deal though.

KRE is selling NEW Pontiac Hemi heads now. They are billet and also have a billet block available.

http://www.tinindianperformance.com/...PRI%20show.htm

[Shaggy]

didnt some of the molds pop up on E-bay a while back?? is someone gunna do something with 'em??

[autobilly]

Originally Posted by HEMI32

Excellent thread, very informative!

[applekrate]

Originally Posted by applekrate

Here is the #2 M/T HEMI Pontiac used. This was Jack Chrismans own car, an AA/Fueler on nitro. As opposed to M/Ts dragmaster car ( white ) that ran on gasoline during the NHRA fuel ban.
This car was wrecked in a spectacular accident at Lions in the fall of '62.
The story is so crazy, I did not believe it at first even though the guy who told me is very credible.
Here is what I was told...
"Chrisman pushed down the fire up road and turned around to make a pass, early in the run, one of the rear mag wheels broke during a wheelstand...sent the car out of control and it ran into the tower on the left side of the track. Chrisman apparantely knocked out...motor running buzzing to the moon on nitro...One of the track personel who got to the car first pulled the plug wires out of the motor to get it to shut off......!

I know, I know, it a a pretty wild story and it's seems like one that was made up.
When I heard the story years back, I kinda' took it with a grain of salt so to speak. Even though the guy telling me who way it is very credible.

Anyway... what finally won me over and made me believe it was I heard the almost identical story from another person here in Az who also was there at Lions that day. these guy do not know each other.
I was finally a believer. then, a few years later, it I saw it documented in a drag racing book.
amazing story.
Here is his car before the wreck. I am not aware of pics of the wreck but, there must be some somewhere.
This was at the peak time of Pontiac development and racing with M/T. It was about to end in the few months.

The M/T Pontiac HEMI story..... to be continued.....

Steve Barcak
www.pontiacheaven.org


Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgia drags, show and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az

This thread has been dormant for awhile. As of last night, I found 2 more important pics of the #2 Jack Chrisman rail with M/T HEMI Pontiac for power.
These are the only color pics I have ever seen. It shows it at the '62 US Nationals so it must have been set up to run on gas at least for this race.
Hosting-
Pontiac/Buick/Olds FALL FEST Sat Nov 28, 2009 Phoenix
www.pbofallfest.org
12th annual Pontiac Heaven April 8-11, 2010 Phoenix
www.pontiacheaven.org
8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! April 11, 2010 Phoenix
www.nostalgicshowandgo.org

[51 Hemi J]

Very Nice Steve! I would love to own a set of those someday. I would replace my 392 with a Pontiac any day!

Is it true that a Pontiac Block shared the same bore centerlines as an Early Hemi of the Mopar variety?

[robt500]

very cool

[applekrate]

Originally Posted by 51 Hemi J

Very Nice Steve! I would love to own a set of those someday. I would replace my 392 with a Pontiac any day!

Is it true that a Pontiac Block shared the same bore centerlines as an Early Hemi of the Mopar variety?

Sorry for not replying sooner, I just saw this.
The Pontiac bore spacing is 4.62" and I think the 392/354 is 4.59"
even the bolt pattern is close. I do see it somewhat practical to modify alum 392 heads ( like the Donovan 417, etc ) to fit a Pontiac block for those with enough energy and resources to do it. If I didn't have a decent stash of M/T HEMI Pontiac head, I would be exploring that attractive option.

Steve
Hosting-
Pontiac/Buick/Olds FALL FEST Sat Nov 28, 2009 Phoenix
www.pbofallfest.org
12th annual Pontiac Heaven April 8-11, 2010 Phoenix
www.pontiacheaven.org
8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! April 11, 2010 Phoenix
www.nostalgicshowandgo.org

[Slim Pickens]

This is great info and history, Thanks Steve. Slim

[51 Hemi J]

Originally Posted by applekrate

Sorry for not replying sooner, I just saw this.
The Pontiac bore spacing is 4.62" and I think the 392/354 is 4.59"
even the bolt pattern is close. I do see it somewhat practical to modify alum 392 heads ( like the Donovan 417, etc ) to fit a Pontiac block for those with enough energy and resources to do it. If I didn't have a decent stash of M/T HEMI Pontiac head, I would be exploring that attractive option.

Kind of makes one wonder if Mickey Thompson might have tried this option, prior to pursuing the venture. In fact, I think I read of the similarities in the Pete McCarthy book IIRC.

It is crazy enough that I might look into it. I absolutely love everything about the Pontiac engine design and just so happen to have some parts laying around. Not Donovan 417 heads, but stock 392's.

[applekrate]

I've been making some progress on the HEMI. I've assembled the heads and rocker stands and now the engine is completely assembled, valves are set, etc. I spent a considerable amount of time on the head gaskets, the rocker stands, etc.

Everything was double checked. I did not find any excessive wear or damage on the push rods, rockers, etc. Now all that is needed to fire up the motor is to -

1. set up the mag
2. clean out and run the oil, water and part of the fuel lines
3. some minor electrical to hook up
4. mount the alt and water pump belts/pullies.

with a few other projects on higher priority, it'll be a few more weeks before i work on this but, I hope to fire it up later this month or in March.
It'll get some run time and then I'll pull the rocker covers and maybe the stands to inspect the valve train again to make sure it is oiling properly.

It should be in running condition for the Pontiac Heaven/Nostalgic Show & Go! weekend here in Phoenix April 8-11

Steve
Hosting-
Thur-Sun April 8-10, 2010 12th annual Pontiac Heaven Phoenix www.pontiacheaven.org
Sunday April 11, 2010 8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! Phoenix www.nostalgicshowandgo.org

[51 Hemi J]

Steve, PLEASE get video of the fire up on Youtube or somewhere online. That would be great to hear. Just curious if they have the "Early Hemi" sound or something completely different. Also, do you have pics of the internals - specifically the Pistons? I guess since they are blower pistons, they may be std flat tops with reliefs cut in the right spot?

[1940 Willys Coupe]

Hey Steve,

Great storys on M/T, Hemi's and Ponitacs

Keep them coming!

1940 Willys Coupe

[applekrate]

Here are some HEMI Pontiac piston pics. 3 generations of them in fact.

The one on the left is an original 1962 M/T HEMI forging. The one in the middle is an early 70s era Arias ( much more modern ) and the one on the right is 1 of a set I had made for my AA/Fuel Dragster by Ross a few years back. They will be used in my second HEMI Pontiac engine and will be much more powerful and on nitromethane. The valve spacing (not bore spacing) is the same as a 392. The Arias pistons are in this motor.

Also, there are pictures of the motor going together on www.pontiacheaven.org . Look on the 'boats' page.

I also wonder what it'll sound like.
In the late 80's and early 90's a man by the name of Jack Gifford built and ran a Pontiac engine with M/T HEMI heads. I have video with sound and more info on him coming in this thread. He was not only successful with this engine but was national champion with it Beating up aftermarket alum Chevies, etc. His application was a tractor puller. It reved over 8,000 for many seconds while dragging/pulling that sled. His Pontiac engine displaced about 380 inches. Neat stuff, more later on him.

Steve
Hosting-
Thur-Sun April 8-11, 2010 12th annual Pontiac Heaven Phoenix www.pontiacheaven.org
Sunday April 11, 2010 8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! Phoenix www.nostalgicshowandgo.org

[345 DeSoto]

There is a Pulling Tractor in Upstate NY that runs a Pontiac with a set of the M/T Hemi heads on it...owned by a Farmer...

[55chieftain]

Steve, looking forward to the video of Jacks tractor.

4 cylinders got Hemis too!

http://smithcollection.com/Collectio...nes/E007.shtml

Bill

[applekrate]

Originally Posted by 345 DeSoto

There is a Pulling Tractor in Upstate NY that runs a Pontiac with a set of the M/T Hemi heads on it...owned by a Farmer...

The person you are referencing is Jack Gifford who lives in Phelps, Ny not too far from Rochester. He is not a farmer and has retired the pulled since the mid 90s. I visited him for a few days on one of my big road trips in the fall of '07. Nice guy and a wealth of knowledge too.
Jack currently has more actual running time experience with the M/T HEMI Pontiac than anyone else does. More on Jack later. He is on the net often but, I do not think he posts here.

Steve

[Muzz]

Steve, sorry to get slightly off track but do you have any more info or pics on the 427 ford M/T hemi Heads?

Muzz

[applekrate]

Here are some files pics I have of the M/T 427 HEMI Ford. This is the intake side.


Here is the exhaust side



Here is a top view


Here is the chamber side


Here is a side view.


The 8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! will have BOTH a M/T blown Pontiac HEMI and a M/T 427 Ford HEMI on display. It will probably be the only time you can see both engines at the same place.



Steve
Hosting-
8th annual Nostalgic show & Go! April 11 Phoenix
Make plans to attend now www.nostalgicshowandgo.org

[haroldd1963]

Great Thread! Thanks for sharing all of your knowledge Steve.

[Muzz]

Thanks Steve, great thread.

Muzz

[applekrate]

Happy to announce that my first M/T HEMI Pontiac is now running! I fired her up for the first time tonight and then fired it a bit later and got some heat in it. Sounds great. It's blown/injected on gas and in a very low hour '72 Hondo Flatbottom. Hope to have it in the water in a week or two.
Work will progress on my 2nd Pontiac HEMI later this year. Maybe have 2 running sometime next year. This has been a long pull to get this done. Seems like a million dollars and a million hours into it too.

It finally bears some fruit getting to hear it run!

Steve Barcak

['46SuperDeluxe]

I read about these recently, only vaguely remembered them from back in the day, but it's coming back. Could you show the double jointed pushrods that were necessary to get the heads and the block to work together, and speak to their truly unique nature? This is such an interesting part of the whole Hemi "mystique." Thanks for starting this thread applekrate!

[studhud]

Originally Posted by applekrate

Happy to announce that my first M/T HEMI Pontiac is now running! I fired her up for the first time tonight and then fired it a bit later and got some heat in it. Sounds great. It's blown/injected on gas and in a very low hour '72 Hondo Flatbottom. Hope to have it in the water in a week or two.
Work will progress on my 2nd Pontiac HEMI later this year. Maybe have 2 running sometime next year. This has been a long pull to get this done. Seems like a million dollars and a million hours into it too.

It finally bears some fruit getting to hear it run!

Steve Barcak

Thats bitche how about some video of that BAD MUTHA $%&&ER!!!!!
Dave Hitch

[applekrate]

Originally Posted by '46SuperDeluxe

I read about these recently, only vaguely remembered them from back in the day, but it's coming back. Could you show the double jointed pushrods that were necessary to get the heads and the block to work together, and speak to their truly unique nature? This is such an interesting part of the whole Hemi "mystique." Thanks for starting this thread applekrate!

The M/T HEMI Pontiac pushrod is not double jointed. They look like a standard adjustable pushrod. My understanding is only the M/T Ford HEMI used the weird pushrods.

['46SuperDeluxe]

Originally Posted by applekrate

The M/T HEMI Pontiac pushrod is not double jointed. They look like a standard adjustable pushrod. My understanding is only the M/T Ford HEMI used the weird pushrods.

"Okey Doakey," thanks!

[the SCROUNGER]

[QUOTE=applekrate;3393216]With the research I have made. I have learned there were about 15-20 pairs of heads casted and about 4 or 5 intakes. that is what Fritz Voigt told me when I interviewed him a few years back. He was one of Mickeys friends, workers and head mechanics.

Another team that tried the M/T HEMI Pontiac but did not stay with it was the Team of Lew Arrington and Jim Leiberman. An issue on a '65 Hot Rod pictures the car with the Pontiac HEMI installed. This was in the '65 GTO funny car "Brutus". They switched many things on the car including the motor to a 392, the motor location, the stance of the car, etc, etc... as funny cars were rapidly evolving at that time as most are aware of.




true- they didn't stay with it, because M/T hemi heads on a Pontiac ate pushrods like candy- they kept breaking pushrods- the valve angles were too severe. That's why you don't see anyone running those heads in a Pontiac street car or race car today, and the ones that are out there are in boats and tractor pullers- applications where the tires or propeller is always spinning and slipping. Put it in a car with slicks that hooks hard, those engines BREAK- and there goes about $20 grand in rare parts shot.

they were basically a copy of an early 392 Chrysler head, recast to Pontiac head bolt, cooling passage, and bore spacing specs- they even used the factory Chrysler Firepower hemi rocker shaft setup.

it was a Chrysler 392 clone, nothing more.

Having said that, M/T heads are cool. The thing to do with those heads is, build a sheetmetal intake and headers w/collectors, and have a few cams ground, and put it in a street car with 9.5 CR on pump gas. Or build a naturally aspirated 14:1 race motor. For some reason no one has the balls to try it.

Then you can have something that can actually be driven and enjoyed, rather than sit and collect dust.

The M/T hemi on the track today, would get it's ass whipped by the current crop of new Pontiac heads and blocks. A Pontiac MR1 or IA2 block with Edelbrock wide port, Tiger, or CV heads, can easily propel a 2000 lb. door car into the 7's- almost a full second faster than the old M/T powered blown dragster went.

but an M/T powered car, would be a real crowd pleaser, from the nostalgia standpoint.

they are cool heads, but they are totally obsolete compared to what's out there today for Pontiac V8- and also inferior to the original 392 Chrysler stuff, from the reliability standpoint.

the M/T heads on Pontiac and Ford engines were custom made patch jobs done by Mickey Thompson, it tied him over until he could get his hands on the Ford 427 SOHC and BOSS 429 hemi headed engines later. Once Mickey got the 427 SOHC in 1965, he kicked those M/T heads to the curb.

[the SCROUNGER]

Originally Posted by applekrate

Happy to announce that my first M/T HEMI Pontiac is now running! I fired her up for the first time tonight and then fired it a bit later and got some heat in it. Sounds great. It's blown/injected on gas and in a very low hour '72 Hondo Flatbottom. Hope to have it in the water in a week or two.
Work will progress on my 2nd Pontiac HEMI later this year. Maybe have 2 running sometime next year. This has been a long pull to get this done. Seems like a million dollars and a million hours into it too.

It finally bears some fruit getting to hear it run!

Steve Barcak

why don't you put one in a car and take it down the track, instead of in a boat ?

[the SCROUNGER]

[QUOTE=applekrate;4594688]Sorry for not replying sooner, I just saw this.
The Pontiac bore spacing is 4.62" and I think the 392/354 is 4.59"
even the bolt pattern is close. I do see it somewhat practical to modify alum 392 heads ( like the Donovan 417, etc ) to fit a Pontiac block for those with enough energy and resources to do it. If I didn't have a decent stash of M/T HEMI Pontiac head, I would be exploring that attractive option.




this is common sense. You can buy a nonmachined early Chrysler 331/354/392 aluminum aftermarket head casting, which are sold by many different companies today, and have it machined to fit a Pontiac.

and then it too, would break and bend pushrods- because if you notice, on an old Chrysler, the block deck has holes in it, for the pushrods to come through.

A Pontiac has no such holes, the pushrods must be located above the deck, and the lifter holes are not angled correctly. An early Chrysler hemi lifter bores were specifically angled so you could run hemi heads, to reduce the pushrod angle.

that's why Brutus/Jungle Jim GTO funny car and others stopped running the M/T, it broke all the time. Otherwise rest assured they would have kept using it. Arnie Beswick went to RA IV and RA V heads instead on his blown funny cars.

[applekrate]

[QUOTE=the SCROUNGER;5573555]

Originally Posted by applekrate

With the research I have made. I have learned there were about 15-20 pairs of heads casted and about 4 or 5 intakes. that is what Fritz Voigt told me when I interviewed him a few years back. He was one of Mickeys friends, workers and head mechanics.

Another team that tried the M/T HEMI Pontiac but did not stay with it was the Team of Lew Arrington and Jim Leiberman. An issue on a '65 Hot Rod pictures the car with the Pontiac HEMI installed. This was in the '65 GTO funny car "Brutus". They switched many things on the car including the motor to a 392, the motor location, the stance of the car, etc, etc... as funny cars were rapidly evolving at that time as most are aware of.






true- they didn't stay with it, because M/T hemi heads on a Pontiac ate pushrods like candy- they kept breaking pushrods- the valve angles were too severe. That's why you don't see anyone running those heads in a Pontiac street car or race car today, and the ones that are out there are in boats and tractor pullers- applications where the tires or propeller is always spinning and slipping. Put it in a car with slicks that hooks hard, those engines BREAK- and there goes about $20 grand in rare parts shot.

they were basically a copy of an early 392 Chrysler head, recast to Pontiac head bolt, cooling passage, and bore spacing specs- they even used the factory Chrysler Firepower hemi rocker shaft setup.

it was a Chrysler 392 clone, nothing more.

Having said that, M/T heads are cool. The thing to do with those heads is, build a sheetmetal intake and headers w/collectors, and have a few cams ground, and put it in a street car with 9.5 CR on pump gas. Or build a naturally aspirated 14:1 race motor. For some reason no one has the balls to try it.

Then you can have something that can actually be driven and enjoyed, rather than sit and collect dust.

The M/T hemi on the track today, would get it's ass whipped by the current crop of new Pontiac heads and blocks. A Pontiac MR1 or IA2 block with Edelbrock wide port, Tiger, or CV heads, can easily propel a 2000 lb. door car into the 7's- almost a full second faster than the old M/T powered blown dragster went.

but an M/T powered car, would be a real crowd pleaser, from the nostalgia standpoint.

they are cool heads, but they are totally obsolete compared to what's out there today for Pontiac V8- and also inferior to the original 392 Chrysler stuff, from the reliability standpoint.

the M/T heads on Pontiac and Ford engines were custom made patch jobs done by Mickey Thompson, it tied him over until he could get his hands on the Ford 427 SOHC and BOSS 429 hemi headed engines later. Once Mickey got the 427 SOHC in 1965, he kicked those M/T heads to the curb.

The posting here has many things stated that are simply not correct. Not sure where you are getting your info from but, you have obviously not seen these M/T heads compared to a 392.

1. you state "they were basically a copy of an early 392 Chrysler head, recast to Pontiac head bolt, cooling passage, and bore spacing specs- they even used the factory Chrysler Firepower hemi rocker shaft setup.

it was a Chrysler 392 clone, nothing more. "

Totally false. The M/T HEMI Pontiac head is a completely new and improved casting compared to a 392. The '64 M/T catalog clearly shows comparing cross cutaways of both a 392 head and the M/T HEMI head. They are very, very different.

Further, they did not use a 392 rocket set up either. They did share the intake rockers and valve covers but, nothing else.
Please do not put out misinformation here on this board.

2. you further state- " That's why you don't see anyone running those heads in a Pontiac street car or race car today. Repectfullyu sir, you do not know what you are talking about.
Further you state- " and the ones that are out there are in boats and tractor pullers- applications where the tires or propeller is always spinning and slipping. Put it in a car with slicks that hooks hard, those engines BREAK" More nonsense. You apparantely have no idea of the strain a puller or boat take compared to a 1/4 drag car. It is a well known fact that boat/marine engines and puller engines work much, much harder than a few second drag engine. That is not arguable. Your comments are incorrect on this issue.

3. you state- "Having said that, M/T heads are cool. The thing to do with those heads is, build a sheetmetal intake and headers w/collectors, and have a few cams ground, and put it in a street car with 9.5 CR on pump gas. Or build a naturally aspirated 14:1 race motor. For some reason no one has the balls to try it."
You are entitled to your opinion on application as is everyone else. However, I can take my boat out any day of the year and run it as fast and hard as I can with no speed limits and also take friends for a ride and race all day. You cannot do this at the drags or on the street.

4. Again, you state due to your lack of real knowledge on M/T HEMI heads, you state- "The M/T hemi on the track today, would get it's ass whipped by the current crop of new Pontiac heads and blocks. A Pontiac MR1 or IA2 block with Edelbrock wide port, Tiger, or CV heads, can easily propel a 2000 lb. door car into the 7's- almost a full second faster than the old M/T powered blown dragster went"
I have seen many 392 headed cars running in the 5's and have yet to see a modern Pontiac doing that.
I do feel the M/T HEMI can be much quicker than the modern head casting, esp on nitro.
I do have a second M/T HEMI going together for my AA/Fueler. Special HEMI Pontiac pistons, cam and headers have already been made. A custom shaft rocker system and intake is under construction. All for use in my AA/FD.


Anyone can mouth off here whether they know what they are talking about or not. This guy is out of line and does not know his facts. Get is straight bud.
Whether you wish me well or not, be honest. I don;t care if you like the HEMI or not but, you do not need to lie and spread the wrong info about the motor.
Steve

[applekrate]

Whew! What a great day Labor day was yesterday! Took the HEMI Pontiac out for several spins on the water and had a blast. Made a few outings with the zoomies and then 2 more after switching over to the collector marine headers. This thing really flies! Gaining some valuable seat time learning to drive it and also working on the tune.




Hope everyone else had a fun labor day weekend.

Hosting-
9th annual Nostalgic Show & GO! Speedworld Dragstrip in Phoenix
April 3, 2011 www,nostalgicshowandgo.org

[1940 Willys Coupe]

Hey Steve,

Great shot of the boat!

If anyone looks close at your boat and has to ask why?

They just don't get the need for speed?

Thanks for all the infomation on a great subject.

1940 Willys Coupe

[Bullrack]

My neck would be some kinda swole up if that Hondo was mine. Looks great and has more character than anything else on the water. Hats off to you Steve!

[51 Hemi J]

Hey Steve, can you get some video or a sound clip of that Beautiful Piece?

[SOLO]

Steve you have some awesome, rare stuff! Need a youtube video of the hemi! Would like to see the fire up in April, but won't be able to make it down. Great info, and your website has some awesome Pontiac history info on there. Thanks

[applekrate]

Had the M/T Pontiac HEMI out for a show yesterday and a friend took some requested video. This link should get it there. Was buzzing it just over 8 grand.

[applekrate]

one more..

[lawman]

Wow !!!! That is some great old info.Thanks guys.Tom(Tired Old Man)

[pontiacfarmer]

hello steve
what info do you have on est hp on that engine..also any idea of topspeed on the boat?
regards stig

[Boeing Bomber]

Originally Posted by 296 V8

Ever consider putting that extra head on one of them little Pontiac 4 bangers.
Crazy cool if it would work.

At Speedweek last summer there was a Jeep CJ3 rail running one of those Slant 4 pontiacs, Blown and injected, sitting in the rear. If the guy didn't put a "Pontiac" emblem on the side of his blower nobody would have guessed it, and many STILL didn't. The guy said he was running a 455 head on it. I'll russle up the pics when I get home.
Last Summer at the NSRA Museum they had a M/T show, and they had his Slant 4, and Slant "2" on display. Both blown and injected. That guy was CRAZY

[Kustom Linez]

Awesome boat! Sounds great!!!

[SOLO]

Killer Tunes!

[2afbs]

A couple pics of Mickeys cars from the museum. Thought i had pics of those blown 2 and 4 bangers.

[mechanickeith]

Great video Steve!

Here is another M/T Hemi Pontiac

[applekrate]

For those interested, I will be doing a presentation on the M/T HEMI Pontiac April 1 in Phoenix as part of Pontiac Heaven for 2011.

[51 Hemi J]

Dayum Steve, it does have an Early Hemi tone to it, but at the same time it still sounds like an ole Pontiac! It definitely freed up the RPM Band and made that little Poncho a real nice Air Pump!

[applekrate]

Planning to pull the M/T HEMI Pontiac out of the boat this week to do an inspection and also want to lift the hull off too so I can service the trailer to paint and detail it.
Will have it up and running next month in time for Pontiac Heaven here in Phoenix and the presentation. Hope to see some hambers in attendence.

[applekrate]

Now have the M/T HEMI apart, boat is off of the trailer, finished sandblasting the trailer early this morning, now it is primered and am sanding it. Hope to paint trailer tonight and get boat on trailer Monday or Tues. HEMI will be on display this weekend at Pontiac Heaven. I'll be doing the very first presentation on the M/T HEMI Pontiac this Friday. This is part of a full day of Pontiac presentations at the Hampton Inn Surprise, Az. Then it is to Speedworld for Friday night and all day Sat and Sunday.

[applekrate]

Here is a rare pic of the Dragmaster digger of Mickey Thompson that won the US Nationals in '62. Power is the M/T HEMI Pontiac. Note the '63 push car so this was probably in late '62 or early '63. Would anyone know where this pic was taken? Maybe someone recognizes the background? It is probably a so Cal track.
Also, can anyone identify the people in the pic. Note the '1' on the body of the digger!

[toxic waste]

Hi, Steve
I see in the picture that you have a unmachined head. Can you take 6 pictures of that head and send then to me ?

Thank you
Toxic Waste
James Foreman

[pontman]

[QUOTE=Boeing Bomber;5865807]At Speedweek last summer there was a Jeep CJ3 rail running one of those Slant 4 pontiacs, Blown and injected, sitting in the rear. If the guy didn't put a "Pontiac" emblem on the side of his blower nobody would have guessed it, and many STILL didn't. The guy said he was running a 455 head on it. I'll russle up the pics when I get home.

This is what you saw in 2010, it went 189mph. 2011 top speed was 192.
The goal is 200. Lots of up grades for 2012.

Steve somebody asked if you would even run that number 7 hemi head on a 4 banger? That would be real cool. Badass video of your boat. That thing must SCREAM!

[vintagegasser]

Photo was one that I had posted awhile back, came from a 2 1/4 slide from a group of slides I bought from a former M/T employee that claimed to have gotten from Mickey himself during an office clean out. Shot might have been taken at Pomona, they used a canvas covered fence on their staging lanes or it could be San Gabriel.

Originally Posted by applekrate

Here is a rare pic of the Dragmaster digger of Mickey Thompson that won the US Nationals in '62. Power is the M/T HEMI Pontiac. Note the '63 push car so this was probably in late '62 or early '63. Would anyone know where this pic was taken? Maybe someone recognizes the background? It is probably a so Cal track.
Also, can anyone identify the people in the pic. Note the '1' on the body of the digger!

[Still_Crazy]

And very reasonably priced too

[Stanislao]

Um, why the hydraulic throttle?

[applekrate]

Originally Posted by vintagegasser

Photo was one that I had posted awhile back, came from a 2 1/4 slide from a group of slides I bought from a former M/T employee that claimed to have gotten from Mickey himself during an office clean out. Shot might have been taken at Pomona, they used a canvas covered fence on their staging lanes or it could be San Gabriel.

thanks for the info. If you have any more pics of this engine/car to share, it would be very appreciated.

[applekrate]

Originally Posted by Still_Crazy

And very reasonably priced too

The journalist who put that together obviously had some things very out of proportion. In '62, the M/T HEMI heads alone cost $1,000!

As for the throttle, it was common in that time to use them. I think they were eventually outlawed. Perhaps someone here will know why they were popular in the day?

Apache County Motorsports Days August 24-5
www.apachecountymotorsportsdays.org

Pontiac Heaven Special AA/Fuel Dragster 6.77 @ 200 so far
’65 Tempest AWB Funny car- blown, injected- under construction
M/T HEMI Pontiac, blown, injected in 72 Hondo flat
www.pontiacheaven.org

[applekrate]

Have been working on the HEMI and now have the long block assembled. Will be dropping in the boat in the coming hours and plan to have it out for some testing in a few days. Here it is without the intake and valley cover. Note the solid valley area.



This is the only known complete original Pontiac HEMI engine to survive out of Thompsons shop.

The Pontiac HEMI is the only Pontiac engine that does not have a specific displacement. This one is a 3" main and had a stroker crank in it for 460" most of its life. Now, it has a modified '62 421SD #990 crank forging and displaces 421 inches.

[applekrate]

Had the HEMI on display tonight at the Maricopa cruise in show. It got a lot of attention and questions but, many still do not understand what they are looking at. I may take to cruisin Central in a few weeks. Meanwhile, later this week, she goes to the lake for some testing!

[Deuces]

I love it!!!

[mechanickeith]

Talked to Applekrate Last night!!! He's back out on the lake with the HEMI!!

[s55mercury66]

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I thought the hydraulic throttle was a safety measure that eliminated some of the throttle linkage, and the chance of it binding up and sticking wide open. Someone on here should know.

[applekrate]

Just got back from Lyman lake up here in Apache county in eastern Arizona. This was the first time I took the '62 M/T Pontiac HEMI out at night. It's a real thrill to take this animal out on the water in the moonlight and open her up! Gosh, it really goes and I am still learning how to drive it. What a thrill.
I am planning on displaying and firing her up at the Pontiac Buick Olds Fall Fest at Speedworld dragstrip outside of Phoenix on Saturday, Nov 3.

Going to take her back for a thrill ride in the morning too! Cannot get enough.

More event info- www.pbofallfest.org

[applekrate]

There has been some interesting up dates for the Pontiac M/T HEMI. My custom shaft rocker set up has been finished and delvered back to me along with the head I had sent them. So, for the first time in quite awhile, I have all my Hemi stuff together.
This Saturday in Chandler, Az is the 15th annual Pontiac Heaven car show and parts exchange. I have decided to bring out much of my HEMI stuff to display. This will include the new shaft rocker setup that will be used on my AA/Fueler some time down the road. If you are in the Phoenix area this weekend, stop by and say hello.