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Etiquette of the Survivor

Discussion in 'Traditional Customs' started by J.Ukrop, Mar 17, 2017.

  1. thommoina33
    Joined: Jun 27, 2008
    Posts: 1,051

    thommoina33
    Alliance Member
    from australia
    Staff Member

    This is a really, really good topic and to be honest something I've been struggling with. My deuce 5 window was covered in multiple layers of paint and primer, I've been in the process of slowly stripping the top layers to expose the Washington blue. It's worn through to bare metal in a few spots including the outer edges of fenders and hood tops.
    I'm currently trying to blend in the paint in those areas to match the rest of the car but all the while trying to stay away from the fake patina, rr crowd.
    On the other hand do I strip and do a full resto, to me it's either one or the other. In doing a full build/paint it means removing that lovely old paint on the grill, the worn chrome etc. Where's the point you say no, it's a full build? And this car has no significant history apart from making it this far in time.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  2. S.F.
    Joined: Oct 19, 2006
    Posts: 2,895

    S.F.
    Member

    Disagree. Sometimes the survival is more impressive than the restoration. Anyone can restore a car. But it is a fact you cannot recreate some of the same finishes of old lead metallic paints/lacquirs/enamels. They have a certain "look'' that lets someone like me, know what that paint finish actually looked like in 1957. Preserving that is what shows future generations what the car looked like. Really though... It all depends on the condition of the car. If its REALLY bad, ok restore it.... slick it out in mundane base/clear and a new EPA friendly chrome job that's 'not quite as good as 50's chrome'. If its well taken care of, slight checking, slight pitting, a few buff through spots....leave it alone. That Edsel is perfect.
     
    51 mercules, clunker and birdog like this.
  3. Lacquer (both nitrocellulose and arcylic) and enamel paints are still available. I was even able to find the exact same gold powder that was used by customizers back in the 40's and 50's with a little digging. It is still being used in the home decor business. The stuff is still out there it's just a matter of how much effort you want to put into finding it. It took me almost a year to get everything together for the '50's Lacquer metallic paint job I want to put on my truck but I was able to do it.
     
  4. S.F.
    Joined: Oct 19, 2006
    Posts: 2,895

    S.F.
    Member

    NICE.... how'd it turn out? paint it yet?

     
  5. I f'd up the first attempt. The paint sprayed beautifully I just screwed up the process to get the colour I was after so I will try again once winter is gone.
     
  6. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Chopolds had some murano pearl, I want some with a gold flop for one of my projects in the worst way, but I am more than a little worried about trying to get a small vial of a sparkly powdery paste across the border!:eek:
     
  7. steel3window
    Joined: Jun 3, 2009
    Posts: 236

    steel3window
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I agree that the Mona Lisa is intended to be viewed, but when one sees it, it is possible to experience it as well. I also agree that a car is meant to be driven and viewed, but aren't driving, and viewing both experiences?


    I believe the primary mistake in my comment is having used an art reference here, I believe what I should have asked was;

    If you paint over a Watson paint job, or strip and and match it perfectly with the same materials, is the car still a Watson?


    I have also realized that I posted my initial comment as a hot rodder in reference to a kustom. That was my mistake, I wholeheartedly apologize to everyone I have offended, and I thank the other posters here for helping me realize my own ignorance. :D
     
    tb33anda3rd likes this.
  8. Moriarity
    Joined: Apr 11, 2001
    Posts: 30,778

    Moriarity
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    [​IMG]



    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  9. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Shoulda seen THAT coming!!:D I want to do my t-bucket in Naples orange with murano gold pearl!
     
    Moriarity likes this.
  10. Moriarity
    Joined: Apr 11, 2001
    Posts: 30,778

    Moriarity
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    My zinger bug clone is corvette sunflower yellow w gold murano pearl [​IMG]


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app[​IMG][​IMG]
     
    falcongeorge likes this.
  11. Moriarity
    Joined: Apr 11, 2001
    Posts: 30,778

    Moriarity
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

  12. When trying to explain why I didn’t “restore” my survivor to the “majority” I typically ask if they have seen antiques road show & how a piece of furniture with original finish is worth much, much more than the same piece that has been refinished, sometimes that helps to explain my decision... although it’s not about the value to me as it is the history, the story... I could build a clone of my Model A (or rebuild my Model A for that matter) using the exact same parts, modifications, tuck n roll interior, lacquer paint etc. & they would be completely different cars to me, my survivor shows how a hot rod was built by a couple of teenagers in the early 60’s, the clone or rebuild would show how a hot rod would have been built by a couple of teenagers in the early 60’s, the difference between how it was built rather than would have been built is a subtle yet massive difference to me.

    I get that some survivors are so far gone that they deserve a rebuild, once again I always enjoy seeing them being brought back to their original glory as close as possible. Make it my own? Improve it? Add my part of the story?... I will buy heap, stocker or stalled project & do all those things if so inclined, but could never disrespect the history & story of my Model A, It is essentially the exact same car that was built in 1962 & made it all these years sporting a few more wounds (being parked for over 40 years untouched helps), I have no problem keeping it clean & polished up, but proud of each wound. – It wasn’t built by a renowned builder or a magazine feature car back in the day, it was built by a couple “joe nobody” teenagers who read all those hot rod magazines in the 50’s & 60’s and set out to build one of their own like thousands of other teenagers.., a car like mine shows how most hot rods were built back in the day (most were not magazine feature cars), using what was available, a stick welder & torch... and not a thought to grind down the bubblegum welds - leaving the car the way it was is my way of showing a bit of respect to the thousands of “joe nobody” builds from the glory days of hot rodding.

    For the hundreds of people that pass my car at a show or cruise night, I usually get one guy who actually knows what he’s looking at, and hearing them say “thank god you didn’t touch this thing”,” this is exactly how I remember the cars I built”, “unreal, it feels like I’m a kid again” etc. etc. & that makes my day – I can’t explain what it’s like to see the original owner and also the original builder take the wheel over 50 years since they last seen the car, exactly the way it was when they were teenagers & now in their 70’s... Good Stuff for sure.
     
    rod1, Tony Martino, clunker and 5 others like this.
  13. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,245

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    One thing that seems to reign here, a severe misconception about survivors and restoration. A true survivor never got stuffed into a shed and forgotten, left to the mice, moths and mildew to permanently render it ugly and disgusting. A true survivor was maintained, used sparingly, loved since day one, gently updataed as time marched on. Back in the day, show up in what looked like garbage and you'd be laughed out of the drive in or cruising hang outs. Girls? I can hear it now, "EEEWWW!!! I'm NOT gonna ride in THAT!" Getting the picture? Am I even making a dent? The uncovered forgotten hot rod is a singular experience, and even though these 'finds' are shared upon discovery I don't recall nor ever got the memo that it's some disdain for protocol, or indeed etiquette, when the process of restoration and preservation begins. Look to the AACA and check out their HPOF class. "Historic Preservation of Original Features" is a class where a major part of the car remains original, but not rotted out garbage original, used as-is and suitable as such. No mildew, shredded cloth, paint gone, engine solid surface rust. Oh, sorry, solid patina...:eek: Corvette orgs have some fairly tight standards for what is considered a survivor. Usually ultra low miles and an uncanny degree of love and preservation since new.

    Was this little read a waste of your time? I hope not. I for one can see respect when something is restored to it's 1st days of splendor. Maybe the paint will be better or the upholstery more supple, but no matter. It's back, and without the use of EFI, electric fans, TKO trans or modern crate motor. The process isn't for everyone but it sure does provide everyone a sincere look back at what really was.
     
  14. Moriarity
    Joined: Apr 11, 2001
    Posts: 30,778

    Moriarity
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member




    well said!!! my sentiments exactly
     
    dana barlow, cretin and falcongeorge like this.
  15. @Denns1989 you did a great job at the preservation of your "true" survivor. a good example of a car that didn't need a restoration.
     
    Denns1989 likes this.
  16. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,245

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Thanks, I'm not surprised. You're one who indeed shows respect to past glory. Denns1989, great job on saving the real deal too. Clearly an example of a genuine survivor.
     
  17. steel3window
    Joined: Jun 3, 2009
    Posts: 236

    steel3window
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You are not alone. The stories I get from guys who "did it just like this back in the day" are worth more than any trophy I could possibly get for showing the car.
     
    falcongeorge and Denns1989 like this.
  18. 57JoeFoMoPar
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 6,138

    57JoeFoMoPar
    Member

    So I guess I'm in the minority here. Should certain historically significant rods and customs be preserved? Absolutely. But they're few and far between and the exception rather than the rule. Everything else is free game as far as I'm concerned. If it's mine, and the title has my name on it, then I'll do whatever I damn well please with it. As far as customs go, I have my tastes and preferences, and even among cars I love, there are precious few that would be built the way I would want to. To me, that's like wearing another man bespoke suit. It may be nice, and it may be close, but what makes a Kustom is that it's customized to the owners taste and style. I'd have no issue buying some old custom and making it my own. Others have alluded to it here, but would there be the same ire if someone took some Easter-egg 80s street rod, and gave it a traditional overhaul? Technically that's ruining the car's history, but I'd call it righting the styling wrongs. Besides, take a look at how some of these old cars were built. Many of them are complete pieces of shit that are poorly built, poorly engineered, and unsafe to be driven. Or customs where body mods were done with brass brazing, cave in a panel with a ball pein hammer and pave over it with a few inches of lead. We're hot rodders and customizers here. Why do we have to preserve period rods and customs but not factory stock cars? It's hypocritical. Cut em up. All of em.
     
  19. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,245

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Nope, not in the minority 57Joe. You're actually right, not all old rods are some icon that we should drop to our knees in awe of their existence. There's stuff out there that was just modified in it's time and nothing more. What does deserve restoration and respect is those with real merit from their time. Just as one wouldn't 'restore' something like the Dave Strickler altered WB racer back to stock or stuff a modern race engine in it, you wouldn't take the Hirohata Merc and change it's colors and wheels to today. Now if we found some chopped Merc done well and never finished, sure it's fair game. Worth finishing. I can't even imagine anyone finding a gennie "Lil John" build from the 80s and trying to make it modern or even retro. There's a limit, or a standard if you will, of what deserves to be treated well or preserved. TJJ/the HAMB isn't the whole world but it's standard bearers have made a mark in history, in the progression of this activity, and is also a major element in the direction most cars have been taken lately. Easily seen in event coverage in major magazines. Even though some aren't 'perfect' traditional rods the influence is there and one would have to be nearly blind or live in shameless denial to disagree.
     
  20. El Caballo
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 6,283

    El Caballo
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Moriarity likes this.
  21. My survivor constantly reminds of how it was.....
    image.jpeg
    And once it's changed, it's gone forever. Period
     
  22. Squablow
    Joined: Apr 26, 2005
    Posts: 17,390

    Squablow
    Member

    The Snoopy model A is a great example of a survivor and what to do with one. I was sad to read so many other HAMB people tellling the guy to take the fenders off and put some big and little tires on it, and damn glad when that did not happen.

    The T on the previous page is a little too far gone in comparison just to clean it up and make it driving again, the "line" for me is somewhere in between those two cars, but I'd rather see it sit just like it does now, flat tires and all, then see someone "make it their own" with a bunch of modern bullshit changes. If the restoration is going to be accurate, then I'm all for it. But if it's going to be a "make it your own" thing with junkyard late model bucket seats and a T-5 swap and new salt flat wheels and whatever other flavor of the week comes along, then just leave it alone.

    I guess I like the untouched cars because I have trust issues that new owners will fuck them all up. And they often do.

    As for the trend of black highboy roadsters with flatheads (which describes my T pretty perfectly, minus the '35 wires) I can't see what the issue is with that, unless building it involved cutting up a channeled, OHV powered but intact rod from the past.

    Unrelated note but I'm super glad to see another 26-27 T with an earlier turtle deck on it, and a legit period build too! I figured if I waited long enough I'd see another one.
     
  23. Amen !
     
  24. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    So then why do you need to start with a car that has already been customized or rodded by someone? ...Start with an old shitpile you dragged out of a field. I part ways with Highlander here. These "bad-ass rodabilly" cut it up posts are stupid...
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
    Denns1989 likes this.
  25. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    That's PRECISELY the issue. And I have seen that EXACT same thing done right here on this forum, multiple times. I can recall on at least one occasion the guy actually said "I'm gonna make a traditional hot rod out of it" as he proceeded to unchannel it and put big headlights on. I don't think he even grasped the inherent oxymoron in cutting up a car that was built in the era of "traditional hot rods" to build his post millennial idea of what a "traditional hot rod" was..
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
  26. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    This post really sums up the thinking behind it. "I don't like these cars, they don't suit MY TASTE, so they should be destroyed". :rolleyes: Figures hes in his thirties...:rolleyes:

    "So I guess I'm in the minority here. Should certain historically significant rods and customs be preserved? Absolutely. But they're few and far between and the exception rather than the rule. Everything else is free game as far as I'm concerned. If it's mine, and the title has my name on it, then I'll do whatever I damn well please with it. As far as customs go, I have my tastes and preferences, and even among cars I love, there are precious few that would be built the way I would want to. To me, that's like wearing another man bespoke suit. It may be nice, and it may be close, but what makes a Kustom is that it's customized to the owners taste and style. I'd have no issue buying some old custom and making it my own. Others have alluded to it here, but would there be the same ire if someone took some Easter-egg 80s street rod, and gave it a traditional overhaul? Technically that's ruining the car's history, but I'd call it righting the styling wrongs. Besides, take a look at how some of these old cars were built. Many of them are complete pieces of shit that are poorly built, poorly engineered, and unsafe to be driven. Or customs where body mods were done with brass brazing, cave in a panel with a ball pein hammer and pave over it with a few inches of lead. We're hot rodders and customizers here. Why do we have to preserve period rods and customs but not factory stock cars? It's hypocritical. Cut em up. All of em."
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
  27. j3harleys
    Joined: May 12, 2010
    Posts: 912

    j3harleys
    Member

    I Meet you in Las Vegas a couple years ago I loved your car. My son and I feel the same way about our cars. I will maybe change some 20160916_191324 (1).jpg IMG_2498096661386.jpeg other cars possibly, But not these Two.
     
  28. Cars are not furniture.....
     
  29. birdog
    Joined: Nov 25, 2010
    Posts: 426

    birdog
    Member
    from Monroe, UT

    I was thinking about this and not sure anyone can say until they actually get one in your hands. I said a lot of things before I brought my roadster home. Then once I got it a lot of things changed my mind. I will ask a couple questions do you build hot rods to get that a boy from the public at car show or gas station? Or guys on the HAMB? Or maybe that one old timer you really respect? All those things make you feel warm and fuzzy but that is not why I build hot rods or would by a survivor. Only way I can describe it is I went 6 volt positive ground on my roadster. Not because it was already that way I actually wired it that way. All for one reason there is something about when it turns over slow then that flatty comes alive it makes me smile. Probably much like Jim who put my car back on the road in the late forties early fifties. It's all about how it makes you feel. I know where there is another 32 roadster it's a survivor and amazing however not my style so one day when they sell it I hope it goes to someone that can keep its feel the exact same as what it is now. That maybe new paint maybe not however that new caretaker does it. I hope it puts a huge smile on his face! Talking with Jim on the phone for the first time about my car he said I bet it has changed so much. Probably all painted up and flashy. I said nope it looks the same as when you had it once you sold it never hit the road again I could here the excitement. And when I talked to him in person he was grinning ear to ear that it was the same. That is one experience every survivor has a different story and a different owner. The answer can't be paint it and it can't be leave it. Because you never know what car you might find.
     
  30. birdog
    Joined: Nov 25, 2010
    Posts: 426

    birdog
    Member
    from Monroe, UT

    And when you are done it will just right and what you feel would have done it justice. Mine for example was never intended to be a master peace it was an old race car and street racer not saying I won't put paint on it but it would be a damn shame on mine in my opinion to chrome out everything clean up everything and so on. It snow ball into something it was never intended to be. Then there are other that intended to be the blang blang and it fits. A thug from LA wearing cowboy boots and a big belt buckle and cowboy hat at the concert does not make him a cowboy and it feels wrong lolol. Maybe that's an awful example and make no sense
     

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