Here's mine the day it came out of the garage/barn it had been in for decades: Other than the odd plumbing from when a previous owner attempted to get the thing running over 30 years ago, the newest parts on the thing are the '52-4 Ford pedals. Its purely speculation, but I would say that it was raced up to about '58 or so. It'll be massaged enough to make it safe to take on the drag strip again (we're not talking NHRA legal) but not so much as to call this thing 'restored'.
You're the right guy to ask then, that 36 cabriolet or roadster that you guys brought home and had the write up in TRJ, we've seen enough of it in all of it's delaminated and aged splendor. Should it not be restored to what it once was? Clearly there's enough there to recreate it's once unique and cutting edge style. If not, why? The discovery was logged in one of the best possible places, the find has been photographed and documented for the ages, but how is the car and it's builder's past served by leaving it essentially ravaged by time? If it was all on you which direction would it be taken?
From this past summer at The Jalopy Jam Up... made my 8 hour drive (one way) to the show worth it just to see this time traveler.
Forget about famous/important cars. We all know what to do with those. It's a non issue. Let's just say I come across something like this It has no "pedigree", Joe Shmoe built it, who cares. I like old shit. We cook our food on this We use a cannister vacuum from the 50's Our fridge is from 1949 I use an old SLR to take pics of my kids A lot of my woodworking tools are older than me. My house is 160 years old with push button light switches, cracking plaster everywhere. None of it restored. I just like things that are old and show it. Things that are new and perfect have no soul. With old cars/rods, shiny new paint and perfect chrome is ok, but at a show they just looks like sexier brand new Honda Civics to me. If a car is showing it's age I am really interested in checking it out. (not saying YOU have to feel that way) If you have skills like Highlander, or some of the other resto guys, I get it, it would be hard to not get things perfect. Or if that's your thing, I can dig it. But if a dude finds an old car, really likes all the f-ed up stuff, likes the way the old pitted chrome feels, the way the paint crackles, wants to get it running like it is, and keep it looking it's age, why is that so offensive? I don't have time to dig through my stack of mags, or troll through old threads here, but I've seen a lot of cool old rods that are being used as they are, and they are the bomb. Lot's of people chime in on threads saying that other peoples' cars look like piles of turd, and that hot rods HAVE to have shiny paint, etc, etc. That I don't dig.
My current project? I'm off the hook!! I don't have to strip n paint the whole car because it's mostly original paint. It's shiney black, no rot except the tool box/tail panel, the surface rust areas will be blended. Bitchin stance, Flathead, kool rolling stock, custom interior. The interior will be the best part of the car, since that's where we live with it the most I want it nice n new but my way. Classic style n color, a couple tricks, done. Oh yeah, bitchin sounds too so I'm going 12V. Who knows, maybe some day someone will "respect" my vision decades from now.
The whole survivor car thing is very personal and opinion based. Ask 10 car guys about the same car and you'll get 10 different opinions. Me personally, I do not like the most of the true traditional customs, most do not sit right or have cheesy shit mods to them. However, certain cars come along and stop you in your tracks like a blonde with big tits and it's "perfect". For me, those are the ones that should be preserved(ex. Anything Watson, Barris, Salinas Bros, etc, it's a big list). I like the patina scene, and to flip flop the conversation, what is more sacred than preserving perfect mother nature + created paint? Fake patina looks like fake patina, real stuff is an artform of it's own. The real hard part of the whole survivor thing is educating a whole generation what the fuck " survivor", "traditional", " hot rod" actually means. I'm 39 and I walk into any shop and nearly always I am the youngest guy there. I have met less 6 guys in their 20's playing with this stuff. Sucks
Clunker and dual quad, you both bring up good points. Your choices and observations make sense. I like the mentioned list (and agree that it's too big to post), yet even in a list the most revered builders of the past are on there's some dogs. It's foolish to think the best nailed it every time. Impossible. There's a custom in a back issue of TRJ that most simply gush over, it was featured in bare metal, and it's got 1 "miss" after another and another. But it's from "the day" so even I can give it a bit of a pass but I'd never want it. Etiquette would demand I pass it on to someone who wants it like it was and regardless of my opinion history is preserved. Seems like the right thing to do, yes?
Not at all. I don't know the car, but if you (as an example) would like to buy it and improve it, or change it, then I would be all for that as well. I'm not in the camp that every car that was in a magazine, or was built 50 years ago is sacred, not at all. Obviously there are a few that are historically significant, but most cars WE would be able to get our hands on aren't. Just for the sake of argument; If I had lots of $, and bought an old authentic 32 salt roadster that was well known from some car club back in the day in some corner of the country, I would probably preserve it "as is", because I really like old stuff, the character of it, not out of reverence. Then say I sold it to someone who, because it was an all henry steel deuce, whipped it up into a perfect show hot rod with chromed dropped axle, crazy blown hemi, mink leather interior and the best resto body/paint work possible. I would be totally into their build and be excited to see how it turned out. I wouldn't feel the need to have someone else preserve it, like I did, that's not where I'm coming from in my post. Even if someone wanted to build it into a street rod, or rat rod, (neither of which I would do), I would be down with it. OK, if you won the lottery and bought the McMullen Roadster, fine, maybe etiquette would apply.
Just for the record, I was talking about the 41 Ford coupe custom in TRJ a while back. I have no feeling for that one other than it's history. I'm not particularly fond of how it was styled, it's profile, and the grille headlight gig looks straight out of that "Cars" cartoon movie. Some would offer swooning suitable for Ava Gardner about it but not me. Sorry Mr Ayala, a miss as as far as my observation goes. Yet it would be proper to send it elsewhere for preservation, or indeed for me to bring it back to "as was" for a client. What you found? You're right, have YOUR way with it. It might have a cue or feature you may like, but past that I'd call it raw material, the "save" being anything that gets it back on the road. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic. It's a good one.
I have to jump in here. Lots of things to think about! Highlander has hit on my view of this. I findfor me the most fun is bringing whatever I can back to the road in the relative condition I find it in. I don't restore cars. I don't build cars. I usually just buy what turns me on, that I can afford, (which isn't much!), get it put back together as much as I can, and drive it as much as I can. I like the car to tell me what direction to go in, and get as far in the direction it tells me as I can. For me the fun is in the finding, fixing, driving, and re-selling to someone who likes it like I do. I don't give much thought to what anyone else thinks. If I like it, that's enough for me. That's where my signature comes from!
That's what I did with the 40 MorDor this past summer. Fixed some suspension & brake issues, rewired it, gave it a new stance, drove it to some events, and sold it to its new owner.
You restore it to as built 1940's fit and finish! You respect the spirt of the car and the builder ! If the ghost of Harry Westgard walk into your shop today would you really want to see the heart ache in his eyes as he look at the sad remains of one of his creations? I built cars for others for more years than I care to remember. I put my heart and soul into every one! If someone took one later on and made it their own I would be fine with that. but if someone just left it to rot and then have some one drag it out and say isn't this KOOL! would break my heart. Old cars have countless souls attached to them. Show them respect! Larry
You make a valid point but like Isaid in my later post I met the owner of my 32 and he was way more stoked it was left alone. That would all depend on the owner and car.
birddog . with your 32 you did just what I was trying to say. You respected the spirt of the car and the builder. And if the way it is finished is how you wanted it that's all that matters. If I had bought something like your 32 , which to me represents a mid 40's style build. Something like my Dad would have wanted as a teenager, he is 85 now. I would never take a car like that and build a contemporary rod out of it, but because I am all about finish and shiney paint I would paint it and upholster it as it would have been in the 40's in a dark maroon or navy blue that would have been a choice in the day. But if all I found was a a 32 shell and frame I have to admit that I would build a big block Ford powered version of the Barry Lobeck /Steve Conan roadster of the 70.s and 80's . But I like nasty hot rods in shiney paint and chrome! lol But the Westgard car needs to be restored to represent what it was. Larry
I'll keep this thread alive for a while. What would the best thing be for this car? Picked the picture off the internet. I know nothing except that I wish I could find it! Anybody know this car?
late fifties/early sixties build, full fendered, 283 dual carbs. dark blue with white tuck and roll full hubcaps, 4:56's
I am with ya. I know exactly where your coming from except for the 70's and 80's part. But I won't hold that against you My pops would do the same thing. I am starting to feel like hot rods are kind of like religion if your Christian there are a bunch of different ways to interpret the gospel of hot rods and for traditional were like a bunch of different little. Break offs!!
INTRODUCTION The Fédération Internationale des Véhicules Anciens (FIVA) is the world federation of historic vehicle clubs. It supports and encourages the preservation and responsible use of historic vehicles as an important part of our technical and cultural heritage. Historic vehicles are significant in their role as means of transport, as witnesses to their historic origins, the technical state of the art of their period and last but not least for their impact on society. The scope of this Charter includes mechanically propelled road and non---rail land vehicles. A vehicle is considered to be historic once it complies with the Charter and the applicable FIVA definitions. The Charter may include buildings and related artieacts to historic vehicles and their period of operation, such as factories, fuel stations, roads or racetracks. For many years the owners of historic vehicles, the curators of historic vehicle collections and the restorers of historic vehicles have been very successful at salvaging, preserving and keeping historic vehicles in operation. This Charter was approved by FIVA to provide guidance for decisions and treatments in relation to historic vehicles. The Turin Charter unites the guiding principles for the use, upkeep, conservation, restoration and repair of historic vehicles. This Charter is based on and inspired by UNESCO’s Venice Charter (1964), the Barcelona Charter (2003, historic ships) and the Riga Charter (2005, historic rail vehicles). CHARTER Article 1. Aim The aim of this Charter is to preserve and safeguard the history of vehicles including their engineering, form, functions and documented histories and their many and diverse relationships with society and social environments. To understand, appreciate and ensure the preservation and operation of historic vehicles, including their use on public roads, it is important to use the research methods, scientific, historical and technical knowledge available and involve the organisations and facilities working in this sector. Article 2. Future Preservation, restoration and any related work processes are aimed at sustaining historic vehicles as both technical artefacts and witnesses of transport history and culture. It is imperative to pass on the methods used, material knowledge and work processes to future generations. We also aim to preserve the special knowledge, expertise and skills related to the manufacture and operation of such vehicles. Article 3. Care Permanent and sustainable care is essential for the survival of historic vehicles. Responsible use of historic vehicles, including on public roads, is important for their preservation. It is the only way to fully understand and pass on the traditional knowledge of driving and maintaining them for future generations. Article 4. Position It is beneficial for the preservation of historic vehicles that they are seen as an integral part of public life and perceived as a contribution to our cultural heritage. It is important and desirable that they can be used. However, in order to use them, historic vehicles should not be modified more than necessary. Unavoidable modifications should not interfere with the historic substance. As a matter of principle, they should not alter the vehicle’s period engineering and appearance. Article 5. Processes The preservation of historic vehicles can require interventions or restorations to different extents.Preservation means the care and prevention from deterioration or damage, by which the present condition, individual and memorial quality of a historic vehicle or object is safeguarded. Conservation includes all acts serving to secure and stabilise the vehicle or object that do not alter the historic substance, parts and materials. Conservation treatment will not put at risk the object’s historical or material documentary value in any way. It serves exclusively to prevent or at least delay continued deterioration. Usually, such measures are not visible on the surface. Restoration is the process of replacing missing parts or areas with the aim of displaying an earlier state of the vehicle and goes further than conservation. Restored areas should discreetly blend in with the existing historic stock, but remain distinguishable on closer inspection. This is different from repair, that stands for the adaptation, refurbishment or replacement of existing or missing components. Repair makes a vehicle fully operational again and may not take into account the authentic substance belonging to the vehicle. Preservation, conservation, and restoration are specialised processes aimed at safeguarding and displaying a vehicle’s engineering, aesthetic, functional, social and historic value. They should aim at understanding and considering the original design and the historic background of the individual vehicle. They should be based on respect for the individual historic entity and information found in authentic documents. Article 6. History Any changes and modifications to a vehicle which occurred during its ordinary life span and altering its condition as originally delivered are testimonials of the vehicle’s history and should be preserved as such. Therefore it is not necessary to restore a historic vehicle in a way that adjusts its look and technical features back to the appearance of the manufacturing date. A restoration that would return a vehicle to the appearance of a certain period should only be attempted with careful examination of historical records or thorough planning. Components and materials inserted to replace historic parts in the process of a restoration should be identified with simple and permanent markings to distinguish them from the historic substance. For replaced parts, FIVA recommends the marking system attached to this charter (see Appendix) Article 7. Accuracy During the restoration of historic vehicles historically accurate materials and work techniques are preferred, unless such materials or techniques can no longer be used because of safety concerns, lack of availability or legal prohibitions. Especially in the conservation of historic substance, traditional materials may not be adequate. As elsewhere in the field of restoration, modern materials and working techniques may then be used instead, provided they have been proven adequate and durable in experiments or tried in practice. Article 8. Appearance Any modifications to a historic vehicle required outside of its ordinary lifespan should be integrated discreetly and respect the original structure and appearance. Such modifications should be reversible. It is recommended that any important original parts removed should be kept with the vehicle for later use and to serve as reference of their original existence and make. Article 9. Planning Any work undertaken on a historic vehicle should be planned systematically and documented in an appropriate manner. These records should be maintained with the vehicle. Article 10. Archives Any persons, facilities and organisations involved in the preservation, conservation, restoration, repair and operation of historic vehicles should take appropriate steps to protect their records and archives. Article 11. Status Institutions engaged in the preservation and transfer of knowledge or specialist skills required in the preservation and operation of historic vehicles should seek recognition by international and national governmental authorities as cultural heritage and institutions Archives consisting of documents, drawings, photographs or other media and artefacts relating to historic vehicles should be cared for as part of the cultural heritage. -------------------- Appendix Recommended Marking System The system uses the following letters for permanent marking: NB =“newly built” an accurate as possible a copy in terms of form, materials and make, reproduced directly from a documented original) FR =“free reconstruction” (reconstruction without using any historic model in terms of form, material or work technique. The part however fulfils the technical function of an historic component utilised earlier) CS =“conservational stabilisation” (a later structural reinforcement added to stabilize the historic substance). We recommend the indication of the year of restoration /manufacture of the replacement part with the two---letter code. --------------------- Fédération Internationale des Véhicules Anciens The Turin Charter Ratified by the General Assembly of FIVA Munich, October 27th, 2012 Turin Charter Working Group / FIVA Cultural Commission; Thomas Kohler, Gundula Tutt, Rainer Hindrischedt, Mario De Rosa, Alfieri Maserati, Stefan Musfeld & Mark Gessler
The Charta only to give you an idea what is discussed in other areas. How to handle the "restauration" is in all automotive scenes a difficult question. For me there are two important points: 1. Discuss about it! Many mistakes and misunderstandigs - specially with younger people - are there because they don't know it better. Only to say: They are ignorants is a too simple solution. Making a war of opinions helps no one. 2. One serious problem is: People affirm that something was in a specific period like this and this only because they like it, they think it's cool, or they are not able to find the correct parts or they can not afford it. That's the point where history is forged for personal image neurosis. That's really sad. There should be no problem to say: my car is untouched until this year and then I added this and this because of ..." See article 9. in the charta "...and documented in an appropriate manner." You need a collective know how about what was when produced and also what was in a specific time common. There you need eyewitnesses like DANA BARLOW and "crazy" guys like FALCONGEORGE. And a board where you can discuss and correct it - like this here.
The Bruce Meyer award is given for best historical preservation. It is rare for vintage hot rods or customs include their car's engine along with the body and chassis. I would keep the Edsel custom original as it is. Same for the 36 cabriolet custom and Birdog's ultra cool roadster. As soon as you repaint a car like that the originality of the car changes.
Wow, what a tough call........ I like the red version, for its color & the three duces, set up, yet I like the black cars polished Hallibrand wheels. I say take it Red and be just like the photo. Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
I usually go off old photos when I redo a car with my survivor custom SeaBurst its going back too the early sixties look the best part I'll only have too change the wheels and tires. Sent from Austinrod
One thing trumps everything. That thing is ownership. It amazes me that some get so hot and bothered over things that are done to cars they don't own. I have been guilty of negative comments on some ideas...some builds. Most of that though is in the spirit of education. Some of these new ideas are like watching a train wreck in slow motion so I try to point that out. In the end though it matters not....It's not mine. Another thing, history did not stop in 1965. How can anyone ruin history? Some jackass may ruin the car he owns but lets face it....It's part of it's history. The Model B in the barn....I tell you what I would do. I would clean that joker up as is. If I did anything else it would be a stock restoration. That's just me...
I saw this car in the classifieds and thought of this thread, what do you do if the survivor has always had worn paint and patina?
I can only speak for myself, but that decision is easy. I'd fix it all and paint it. Because the car hasn't always had worn paint and patina. In 1934, it was shiny and black, and only after getting the hell beaten out of it for the next 2-3 decades did it end up like that. Then it was lucky enough to be tucked away somewhere where it didn't deteriorate any worse. But like I said in my previous post on this thread, historically significant cars should be saved or at least restored back to the condition of their heyday. But those cars are the exception and not the rule, and not every neat old hot rod is of iconic status. And even though I think this particular car is super cool, the question begs; would we be having the same conversation about the same car if it were restored to stock back in the 60s and just sat until now?
Guideline I have for a resto or not. Assuming the goofy patina craze never happened would you be embarrassed to show up to a cruise night in it? The other thing is that if it has deteriorated enough to raise the question of a resto that means it will continue to deteriorate to a point where no one could call it a survivor.
It's interesting, I view that as a historic drag car I would want to leave it a raced. I would also leave it as a racecar and would never make it a street car again. There are plenty of vintage drag racing events to run it. As much of a racer/hot rodder as I am I think an all original car or restored car should be left alone. I would never cut up a one owner with Henry Ford paint 32 Ford for a hot rod, or take a real deal built in the 50s hot rod and build a stock car out of it because they have history the way they are, which is why I don't understand the trend of finding an old stock car or drag car and turning it into a street car. It's far more popular now and maybe not the intended finished product but patina has always been. I don't want a car with rot holes in the sheet metal, but a little surface rust, cracked faded thin paint wouldn't bother me a bit, however I would be very embarrassed having a dirty greasy engine engine bay chassis, an engine that smoked, god awful rats nest wiring, and/or bird crap welds would but I have seen cars with high dollar paint and body work that have those things. It's all a matter of prospective and taste, there have always been people who focus on running gear and chassis, some who prefer to focus on body and paint, and others who want both.
Anymore I doubt any survivors I see. Like at the car show here there was a contraption that the owner claimed was an untouched "survivor" from 1961. I've seen actual local survivors over the years and oddly were decent quality builds. This was not. Looked like a kindergartners art project. Looked kinda like someone tried to make a t bucket from a jeep.....with a hammer. I could buy the poor Jethro bodine build if not for the fact it had some expensive even then parts on it. Cal custom style wheel, full brace of SW gauges, drilled dropped and filled axle with chromed bones and backing plates, a supposedly 58 Corvette 283 with four chromed strombergs(did have a Corvette bell and t10), 57 olds rear end, chrome F1 box etc. I honestly think more along the lines of it being a late 90s cobble job. Especially with the amount of plastic body filler involved in the actual build. And it was cobbled so bad I hope it came on a trailer. That particular one was so goofy only thing I'd use it for was a donor for something actually somewhat visually appealing. I wouldn't even use the hacked wire welded frame. But it's recognized and actually won awards for being a 1961 survivor. Even the off chance that it is I would at least have hooked up the front brakes and attached the body to the frame with something better than a couple chicken scratch wire welds
IMHO, for a car to be historic, it has to have some sort of fame, notoriety or pedigree attached to it. Magazine cars, major show award winners, cars built by notable builders... that kind of thing. Again, in my perspective, the run-of-the-mill home-built hot rod or custom rarely fits that mold, even if it's super cool as it is. It's just not above being messed with or altered. I look at it from the perspective that the car's history reads like chapters in a book that isn't done being written yet. In the first chapter the car is new. Then in later chapters the car maybe falls into disrepair and is rescued by some teenagers who build a jalopy out of it. Then some racers get it in another chapter. Then in some sad chapters, the car gets forgotten about and sits in a barn for 40 years. I don't feel beholden to that car's history, I see it as now a new owner can write a new exciting chapter where the car is rescued from its slumber and restored to better than new condition.
Okay self-confession...I'm selfish. I don't want a car that the "right thing to do" is keep to its historical significance. I also don't want to inherit a car that was "uncle Joe's car", and he always wanted it to be built like whatever, so I'm going to build it that way. I'm the guy that is its current owner, I'm the guy that will decide what direction the build will go, and it will be "my car", and referred to that way. I'll let museums/private collectors obtain and protect significant historical examples. If you own one of these thousands of cars with historical significance, make sure you don't sell it to someone like me (or better yet never sell it)...I'd hate to flip your world upside down.
The Jalopy Journal
