Technical Front frame job on 58 Edsel. Looking for advice or ideas.

Hi guys. If this is the wrong section I'm sorry.
Basically some local guys contacted me and want me to put a big block chevy in their 58 Edsel Pacer.
The car is shot. Original drivetrain long gone and the bbc is what they had laying around.
They want it put together enough to hit some local car shows with their dad.

So I've done some weird swaps and a lot of cool stuff. But never front frame clip on a car.
Here's a cj7 and a 53 Hudson I dropped in 345/727 from a scout.
And a 55 Buick getting a 12v cummins.
I wish I did frames on them. But o well.







So here's the Edsel.
I was going to squeeze the thing in but i told them we can just clip it and the bbc will bolt into Chevy mounts and they will have power steering and power disc brakes







To fit the engine here I world need a highly modified front sump pan.



So now you see where I'm at.
Where do I start?
Seems easy enough. Measure frame with, track width? Find one close. Camaro, caprice?
Thanks in advance.

 

Another option my buddy used on his build. 04+ ford full size (cop car) sub frame

 

Damn. 1958 Edsel convertible !! ?? !! 2806 built total, number fluctuates if Citation or Pacer models ... yours is a Pacer I believe. 1876 of those made. Of which how many would be left to build/restore ? Yours would be the only model to discuss chopping the frame out and big block Chevy-ing it. Ouch. Guessing the 361 is long gone, manual ... maybe automatic ??

Man. Maybe upgrading to a 352/390/406/427/8 wouldn't make me cry as much. A lot to possibly bolt in. Even a 312 derivative. <sniffle, sniffle>

There is a specific Edsel crowd that would pay some bucks as that car sits. Modified Edsel crowd ? Wow. Dunno'. Good luck either way. Anyone have a hanky ?

 

I would have liked to drop my 396 into my Ford, but the pan thing stopped me. So I'm doing a 355 SBC using an early Nova pan. I can't think of a front sump BBC pan... never seen one made.

I saw a front clip swap on a '58 Ford from a '74 Torino, but again, you have the front sump issue unless you use a 351 or other front-sump Ford engine.

 

I tried to tell these guys that. They don't want to hear it.
And if I don't do the job someone else will.

 

They paid 4k for the car without looking at it first.
They trusted someone
It's pretty rough. You open the doors and the
windshield/firewall falls back 2"

 

Nope, Sorry. I would not even think of ruining my shops reputation without fixing that car properly. You think a clip is going to help the door fit issue? Tell them to take it some were else and let another shop ruin it. Is the work worth your reputation??? Good Quality work brings in more. Half-assing stuff together does not.

 

Once you've got the floors and rockers fixed so that doesn't happen, then you can start thinking about the engine swap. You don't start cutting frames up with a body that loose, you'll do more damage.

 

Also, using the wrong engine just because that is what you have laying around is not an excuse. This is the God-Damned Internet Age. Sell that BBC to someone with a Camaro and buy an FE or MEL. 15 mins on your favorite auction or list site, and problem solved.

 

Jeez I wish I told the guys I don't work on other peoples cars.
I don't own a shop I just like to mess with old cars.
They'll never do what the car needs. They didn't even want me to remove the mouse bedding and years of garbage from the floor so I could get under the dash.
They want it as ratty looking as possible.

 

Walk away.... This is a disaster looking for a place to happen.

 

Yes, tell them no ... and preserve your sanity. There's a reason why I don't work on anyone's cars for $$. Glad to help friends for nothing though.

 

If you did take this on and by some miracle you get pull it off (I'm not putting your skills down, but this is an impossible project), the torque from the motor will twist that thing in half. As soon as something happens, and it will and hopefully no one got hurt, they will be beating down your door as the responsible party.
It's not worth your time or frustrations and possible lawsuits. Walk Away!

 

Now for conversation sale. In the defense of the car. The frame is immaculate and belongs under a 1 ton truck.
It's an X frame. And the X is 1/4 to 3/8" thick. I never saw anything like it.
U think it would get twisted up?

 

I really appreciate all this input guys. Good or bad. I appreciate the honesty

 

Maybe you could lay out what it would cost with a BBC and a Ford product that the car was designed for. If the frame was that bad I would look into replacing the frame (I don't know what would fit but be sure it is from a convertible) Be sure to point out resale. I don't remember anything being wrong with the original suspension on the Edsel and it should be cheap to work on due to the commonality with Fords and Mercurys. If you can't convince the customer with logic and reason I would walk away from it. When you get to the end and it is all screwed up he will blame you and tell others. Although probably too much engine I still remember from forty years ago a red Edsel convertible with a 430 Lincoln (it may have been an option). If it happens I hope he paints it red.

Charlie Stephens

 

Front sump 429 or 460 would probably be a better cheap fit. Those frames were beasts. Actually the Edsel protype chassis' were designed with air ride believe it or not. All kinds of bally-hooed innovations. The grille was considered part of the bumper ... an impact ring ... no sh#t. Cool cars. Love 'em or hate 'em. My dad's side grew up working at Grady Whitlock Ford in Beckley WV. That dude had all the cool cars. It was neat visiting.

What Charlie said ^^ those cars weren't a bad drive stock. I can't imagine what today's little tweaks could improve over Ford. Better bushings, shocks, etc. Hell ... even sway bars. Something will fit.

 

Does anyone know what frame was common with the Edsel? Ford? Mercury? Lincoln? It might give Brandon some talking points if the frame is shot.

Charlie Stephens

 

Think Ford. Wasn't the station wagon and maybe 4 door (Edsel models) ... set on a Mercury frame ????

Edit : Here ya' go !

"The 1958 Edsel came in two sizes. "Big and bigger" you might say, but they are actually two distinctly different designs. The "Senior" Series cars are Citation and Corsair models. They were built on the large Mercury-based frame. The "Junior" series cars are Rangers, Pacers and station wagons Bermuda, Villager and Roundup, which were built on the smaller Ford-based frame. "

http://www.edsel.com/pages/edsel58.htm <<website ... tons of info'

I obviously was half right. In math that would still mean I'm all wrong. (oh well) Used to that !!

 

He said the frame is fine, he's talking about a front clip swap because his bbc oil pan hits the cross member not because the frame is shot.

The car falls in on itself because I assume the a pillars and cowl structure is shot.

For 4 k they got took, people talking about how low number they are should google around at what a nice one of them goes for. I'll save you the time it's not much. Seriously you could buy a really nice driver for about half what it would take to build a solid one into a driver.

This car would take 15k + to turn it into a 6k car.

Put a big block in it and move on to the next thing.

I've never seen an oil pan for a bbc that puts the sump where you will want it but that's not saying there isn't one in some sort of dirt track catalog or it's not something you couldn't make.

If your comfortsble welding a clip on I'd assume you could weld a pan, seems like less work to me but I'm not a bbc guy so maybe I'm Skipping over something

 

It looks like that "free" BBC might end up costing a lot of money. Be sure the Edsel owner reads this thread, it may help you point him down the right path. How come nobody has mentioned a Y-Block, it was one of the standard engines wasn't it? He could sure do a lot of paint and body work for the cost of that front clip.

Charlie Stephens

 

http://www.rmsothebys.com/sp14/sam-pack-collection/lots/1958-edsel-pacer-convertible/1071285

$35,000 smackers on ^ that one.

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/default.aspx?carID=7272&i=8&bsID=12447 << auction totals last 8 years. Citation convertible sold last year for $96,250. Yikes !! >> that one >> http://www.rmsothebys.com/lots/lot.cfm?SaleCode=AZ10&CarID=r142

Key thing ... price wise ... is the convertible part. Fixing the structural issues and dropping in a front sump to keep it ratty looking as they said ... won't cost 15k. 460 c6 running out of a later model Ford/Mercury/Lincoln is cheap stuff. Sometimes free !! Make sure it has the car oil pan ... truck is bigger. So sell the BBC ! People always pull out wallets for those three letters.

Also ... reference "1958 Ford 460" on interweb. Someone has already skinned this potato. Enough for a few trays of fries. Pretty cool project.

Yeah, I like Edsels. Mr. T in picture 2 does too.



Chicks dig the convertibles !!

 

toss the motor in the back seat, right through

Here is solid advice; don't waste a small part of your life doing an insane front clip swap, just to use the wrong motor in a shitbox. If they said : "here's $12k to start" then maybe humor them, but that won't happen

 

Did you see the Hudson at the beginning? That was no accident. The guy wanted that specific engine and trans. Lol. I was scratching my head but I figured eh what the hell.

 

Maybe I'm old and lazy,,,but I wouldn't stand next to that poor piece of shit to look at it.

 

I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll be able to find a rat rod builder who will take this mess on in a heartbeat. They might even do it for a couple cases of PBR.

 

I think the car has potential beyond becoming a rat rod, in fact I think it has a lot of potential.. The only thing is to calculate what it would cost to fix it up versus buying one that was already done. It is hard to tell from the picture just how bad it is, what is missing and what it would cost to fix it up. If it was finished right I would have it in my garage.

Charlie Stephens

 

I'm all for crazy motor swaps. Hell, 14 years ago I put a 383 Chrysler in my '57 Ford. But these guys are asking you to butcher this car up against your better judgment. Walk away.

When I meet with prospective clients and get a bad vibe (ie they're crazy, their case sounds like bullshit, they're asking me to do something against my better judgment, they don't listen to my advice...), I tell them get lost. The money is not worth the headache or aggravation. In the end, they'll be pissed off because the car is still a piece of shit and doesn't do what they wanted it to do, and they'll have spent good money and think you ripped them off after forcing you to try to cram a square peg in a round hole. You'll be pissed because you can't charge them the full amount of what it would take to deal with the aggravation, your name is now attached to a rolling abortion, plus you'll have pissed off customers trashing you to whoever will listen. Everybody loses.

 

How well do you know those guys?
Regardless, has a reasonable payment schedule been discussed ?

 

You seem to feel some sort of 'obligation' to do this job just because you were asked to do it.

As a savvy old man I was proud to know used to say.....
"Blow your nose and get that idea out of your head"

Ray